Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[I am not exposed]

Gretzky himself said that in his opinion, Lemieux if healthy would've broken all of his records.



Pretty sure Gretz knows more about hockey than all of us put together (by quite a lot)

Seriously! Are you that oblivious to Gretzky and his never ending praise!

 

[bambamcam4ever]

But really, is it *that* much more impressive?

Yes. Malkin dominated that playoffs. Couture put up a bunch of points, there's a difference.

 

[GreatGonzo]

@MacMacandBarbie In other words, Malkin and company bailed Crosby out because he couldn’t raise his game when he mattered the most?

 

[PainForShane]

And yet it didn't happen, nor was it even close to happening. Gretzky has more assists than Lemieux has points despite Gretzky being the all-time goals leader.

Gretzky is an extremely gracious person - that is the takeaway here.

No, the takeaway is that Gretzky honestly believes a healthy Lemieux would've broken all of his records.

Yes Gretz is nice we all know that, he's always calling other players 'unbelievable' etc. But to my knowledge he's never said, "if healthy, xxx player would've broken all of my records" except this one time. Has he?

If he has then you're right, please provide a source. Otherwise I don't recall him ever been that specific about a player breaking his records before (though I might be wrong).

There is a difference between saying, "the things this player does are unbelievable" (which he says about a lot of ppl) and "this guy would have finished with a better career than I had" which is what he said about Mario.

***

Anyway the takeaway here is that regardless of whether Gretzky's nice / gracious (which he is), he's saying something he actually believes, which is that a healthy Lemieux would've finished with better career totals than him. So it's not just Pens fans who are "pretending" that Mario in that very highest tier

 

[Midnight Judges]

No, the takeaway is that Gretzky honestly believes a healthy Lemieux would've broken all of his records.

Yes Gretz is nice we all know that, he's always calling other players 'unbelievable' etc. But to my knowledge he's never said, "if healthy, xxx player would've broken all of my records" except this one time. Has he?

If he has then you're right, please provide a source. Otherwise I don't recall him ever been that specific about a player breaking his records before (though I might be wrong).

There is a difference between saying, "the things this player does are unbelievable" (which he says about a lot of ppl) and "this guy would have finished with a better career than I had" which is what he said about Mario.

***

Anyway the takeaway here is that regardless of whether Gretzky's nice / gracious (which he is), he's saying something he actually believes, which is that a healthy Lemieux would've finished with better career totals than him. So it's not just Pens fans who are "pretending" that Mario in that very highest tier

Here's another quote from Gretzky, and it comes from well after Lemieux's career was over:

"But Gordie Howe is the greatest player who ever lived. There's not even a question about it."

Gretzky considered Howe 'the greatest of all time'

Wayne Gretzky shared his admiration for Mr. Hockey, Gordie Howe, in early 2015 at what many thought could be Howe's final public appearance.

www.espn.com

So yeah it's not exactly what you asked for but it need not be - although it is a close enough approximation to what you ask for in your 4th paragraph.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

There is no Gretzky / Lemieux tier -as much as pens fans would like to pretend there is.

Lemieux is actually #1 all time in adjusted points per game.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Lemieux is actually #1 all time in adjusted points per game.

By virtue of quitting.

 

[ThisIsMyAlibi]

Until proven otherwise, Prime Crosby had a greater effect on winning.

 

[Bank Shot]

I'm claiming that McD has done an inconsistent job at helping his teammates become better players (for every Hyman there is a Pulju), Sid has been much better in this area, and it's helped them win cups. Is Sid the ONLY factor in the development of Kunitz etc? No, of course not, that's not what I'm saying at all. Most of their development is due to lots of other factors certainly including the players themselves. But I AM saying Sid played a big part in this development, maybe 10-15% or so, which is much more than expected from a player and also important because it contributed to the Pens Stanley Cups.

It's crazy that the Pens org didn't just put guys like Angelo Esposito, Beau Bennett, and Daniel Sprong on Crosby's wing and turn them into quality top six wingers.

What a fail by the org.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Until proven otherwise, Prime Crosby had a greater effect on winning.

Does that logic hold up for all players or just Crosby?

Did prime Crosby have a greater effect on winning than Mario?

How about Jonathan toews. Same effect on winning?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

But really, is it *that* much more impressive?

Yeah, Malkin’s adjusted points is 40, 2 less than McDavid’s with more goals. Couture doesn’t measure up.

I know you are trying really hard to make it seem like Malkin’s dominant run in 09 to McDavid’s 24 run aren’t comparable, so you might want to come up with a better tactic.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Yeah, Malkin’s adjusted points is 40, 2 less than McDavid’s with more goals. Couture doesn’t measure up.

I know you are trying really hard to make it seem like Malkin’s dominant run in 09 to McDavid’s 24 run aren’t comparable, so you might want to come up with a better tactic.

Are we comparing Malkin and mcdavid now? Why was Sid outscored by his teammate?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Are we comparing Malkin and mcdavid now? Why was Sid outscored by his teammate?

You can't remember what we are talking about, let alone keep up with your ridiculous talking points. You don't even need me for this conversation anymore, as you could literally talk to a wall. Cheers.

 

[lawrence]

Until proven otherwise, Prime Crosby had a greater effect on winning.

prove by doing what exactly?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

prove by doing what exactly?

 

[lawrence]

so if he doesn't win a cup he's not a great player? whats the criteria here?

player with Stanley cup is better than player without a Stanley cup?

 

[Frank Drebin]

You can't remember what we are talking about, let alone keep up with your ridiculous talking points. You don't even need me for this conversation anymore, as you could literally talk to a wall. Cheers.

Well it was about malkin and his adjusted playoff stats, and how McDavid's season this year wasn't all that impressive in comparison.

Was Crosby not on that team? Why was he outscored by his teammate? Why are we comparing Malkin and not Crosby to Mcdavid? Was Crosby carried that year? 9 points in the final 2 rounds isn't great.

No need to respond, just thinking out loud. Cheers.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

so if he doesn't win a cup he's not a great player?

He has been stamped as a great player, I can't imagine even a single person is arguing that in this thread.

whats the criteria here?

Now that is a great question.

player with Stanley cup is better than player without a Stanley cup?

Yes.

Well it was about malkin and his adjusted playoff stats, and how McDavid's season this year wasn't all that impressive in comparison.

No, it was back pedaling on the idea that McDavid just did something that nobody else could do. Despite the fact that Malkin just put up a similarly impressive run in 09, the notion went as far as to say that not even a prime Lemieux or Gretzky could repeat what McDavid just did.

Was Crosby not on that team? Why was he outscored by his teammate? Why are we comparing Malkin and not Crosby to Mcdavid? Was Crosby carried that year? 9 points in the final 2 rounds isn't great.

Because you moved the goal posts of the conversation every time your ridiculous comments got outed.

No need to respond, just thinking out loud. Cheers.

Alright Ed Sheeran.

 

[lawrence]

Yes.

So Ryan Shannon, Johnah Gajovich, Brad May, are better players than Jermone Iginla, Sedins, because they have Stanley cups, and Daniel Henrk and Jerome don't have a stanley cup? Never will understand HFboards logic.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

So Ryan Shannon, Johnah Gajovich, Brad May, are better players than Jermone Iginla, Sedins, because they have Stanley cups, and Daniel Henrk and Jerome don't have a stanley cup? Never will understand HFboards logic.

That is a false equivalency. Honestly you fit right in here.

 

[Offtheboard412]

His game is completely to stick handle around defenders. They chase, and he cuts and turns on a dime. Crosby plays the "superstar grinder" game. His edgework is probably the best ever.

He doesn't create plays by blowing by defenders with speed in transition like McDavid, but Crosby's skating, edgework, Mohawks and control in the opposing zone is GOAT. Defenders chase and then lose him when he turns on a dime with full control, creating that space

When I say stickhandle around defenders, I'm talking about taking defenders head on facing toward them. Crosby did that more early in his career, but it was never as big of a part of his game as it is for McDavid. Handling the puck in the corners with his back to them is not the same thing, that's more puck protection and body positioning, not stick handling. And saying that is completely his game is definitely not accurate, because this has become far less common for him to do the past 4 or 5 years.

 

[Frank Drebin]

So Ryan Shannon, Johnah Gajovich, Brad May, are better players than Jermone Iginla, Sedins, because they have Stanley cups, and Daniel Henrk and Jerome don't have a stanley cup? Never will understand HFboards logic.

Back in 2015 hockey fans were victimized by fans who hated Sidney Crosby with nonsensical reasons why Jonathan toews was equal to or arguably better than Sidney Crosby

Things like
Leadership
Being a born winner
Clutch ability
Elevating teammates

And other non tangible hockey skills. A meme was born , “Toews intangibles”

Now these same penguin fans, along with fans who hate and or are jealous of McDavid, are trying to use the same nonsensical reasons on the rest of the hockey world

Just like the toews conversations look silly today, these conversations will look silly 3,4,5 years from now

 

[GreatGonzo]

He has been stamped as a great player, I can't imagine even a single person is arguing that in this thread.

Now that is a great question.

Yes.


No, it was back pedaling on the idea that McDavid just did something that nobody else could do. Despite the fact that Malkin just put up a similarly impressive run in 09, the notion went as far as to say that not even a prime Lemieux or Gretzky could repeat what McDavid just did.

Because you moved the goal posts of the conversation every time your ridiculous comments got outed.

Alright Ed Sheeran.

If a player with a cup is better than a player without a cup, then Kris Draper>Eric Lindros…

Are we comparing Malkin and mcdavid now? Why was Sid outscored by his teammate?

your forgetting some really big context there. Crosby actually allowed Malkin to raise his game in the finals by taking the tougher match ups. That’s how amazing of a leader he is. He straight up sacrificed his own play for the good of the team, something McDavid doesn’t know anything about…stacking points in the finals while his team doesn’t do much…what a loser. Crosbys 3 points in those finals was probably the most important 3 points in finals history. And it wasn’t that he went scoreless In games 6 and 7, he simply turned on his leadership qualities and allowed his team to play at a high level, all while he “willed” his team to victory.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Back in 2015 hockey fans were victimized by fans who hated Sidney Crosby with nonsensical reasons why Jonathan toews was equal to or arguably better than Sidney Crosby

Things like
Leadership
Being a born winner
Clutch ability
Elevating teammates

And other non tangible hockey skills. A meme was born , “Toews intangibles”

Now these same penguin fans, along with fans who hate and or are jealous of McDavid, are trying to use the same nonsensical reasons on the rest of the hockey world

Just like the toews conversations look silly today, these conversations will look silly 3,4,5 years from now

There have been many tangible arguments. People have brought up the following tangible skills:

Effectiveness around the net and behind the net
Backhand shot
Battling along the boards
Breaking up plays in the defensive zone

There have also been attempts to display how dominant Crosby was, that doesn't get seen in raw point totals due to him being injured in his peak, and playing in a dead puck era 2.0. For instance:

Crosby leading the league in PPG just as many seasons as McDavid
Crosby having dominant PPG and end of season point total finishes over 2nd place
Crosby showing his versatility by adding that around the net garbage goal ability to his game, snagging a 2nd Richard in the process pre-concussions


There are tangible rule changes that can be pointed to that reduced the number of head shots and leading with the elbow, blindside hits, etc after Crosby got blindsided for another concussion. He helped paved the way for a league that protects its star players more.

There have been far more nuanced arguments than the above, but there are tangible reasons that stats clearly showcase Crosby being on the same tier as McDavid. Its easy for Crosby haters and McDavid fanboys to say, "Well why didn't Crosby win more Harts?" and then when we bring up a season like 2013 where he dominated with 1.61 PPG and was lapping the league before being sidelined again by a cheap shot its like "Well he didn't win it, so your stats are useless, only trophies matter" and so why not chirp back with Crosby's Cups, Olympic Gold, and WJC Gold and showcase how he wins everywhere he goes on every level, and is the leader on the team when doing so?

"There is just nothing tangible, I just don't see it"

Well then you aren't trying to see it, in fact you are making a concerted effort to try not to see it.

 

[Frank Drebin]

If a player with a cup is better than a player without a cup, then Kris Draper>Eric Lindros…

your forgetting some really big context there. Crosby actually allowed Malkin to raise his game in the finals by taking the tougher match ups. That’s how amazing of a leader he is. He straight up sacrificed his own play for the good of the team, something McDavid doesn’t know anything about…stacking points in the finals while his team doesn’t do much…what a loser. Crosbys 3 points in those finals was probably the most important 3 points in finals history. And it wasn’t that he went scoreless In games 6 and 7, he simply turned on his leadership qualities and allowed his team to play at a high level, all while he “willed” his team to victory.

He let the others lead, so to speak