Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[MacMacandBarbie]

If a player with a cup is better than a player without a cup, then Kris Draper>Eric Lindros…

Well random player with no context that has cup vs random player with no context that doesn't have cup was the question.

your forgetting some really big context there. Crosby actually allowed Malkin to raise his game in the finals by taking the tougher match ups. That’s how amazing of a leader he is. He straight up sacrificed his own play for the good of the team, something McDavid doesn’t know anything about…stacking points in the finals while his team doesn’t do much…what a loser. Crosbys 3 points in those finals was probably the most important 3 points in finals history. And it wasn’t that he went scoreless In games 6 and 7, he simply turned on his leadership qualities and allowed his team to play at a high level, all while he “willed” his team to victory.

Thats what this guy thinks too

Malkin took advantage of Sid’s line getting top matchups in 09

 

[PainForShane]

Here's another quote from Gretzky, and it comes from well after Lemieux's career was over:

Gretzky considered Howe 'the greatest of all time'

Wayne Gretzky shared his admiration for Mr. Hockey, Gordie Howe, in early 2015 at what many thought could be Howe's final public appearance.

www.espn.com

So yeah it's not exactly what you asked for but it need not be - although it is a close enough approximation to what you ask for in your 4th paragraph.

Wayne's been on record many times saying he thinks Gordie was the best player ever. The interview I showed is the first and only time I've ever heard or seen him say, "there is no question xxx, if healthy, would've broken all my records" about a peer or someone who played after him.

Again, before that interview, I never heard him say that about anyone. He may have said something similar about another player (other than Mr. Hockey), but I don't think he did.

***

Put a different way, Gretz is nice and generally complimentary of most other players, and Gretz also thinks Mario was so good that there's "no question, if healthy, Mario would've broken all the records."

Anyway this all means Wayne himself thinks a healthy Mario would've been on his level and then some. Again, it's not just Pens fans it's Wayne Gretzky himself

 

[ThisIsMyAlibi]

prove by doing what exactly?

Probably the winning part

 

[GreatGonzo]

Well random player with no context that has cup vs random player with no context that doesn't have cup was the question.

Thats what this guy thinks too

Hold on, you clearly said ANY player who has a cup is better than any player without one…you said “yes.” but NOW you want to add context?…

 

[GreatGonzo]

There have been many tangible arguments. People have brought up the following tangible skills:

Effectiveness around the net and behind the net
Backhand shot
Battling along the boards
Breaking up plays in the defensive zone

There have also been attempts to display how dominant Crosby was, that doesn't get seen in raw point totals due to him being injured in his peak, and playing in a dead puck era 2.0. For instance:

Crosby leading the league in PPG just as many seasons as McDavid
Crosby having dominant PPG and end of season point total finishes over 2nd place
Crosby showing his versatility by adding that around the net garbage goal ability to his game, snagging a 2nd Richard in the process pre-concussions


There are tangible rule changes that can be pointed to that reduced the number of head shots and leading with the elbow, blindside hits, etc after Crosby got blindsided for another concussion. He helped paved the way for a league that protects its star players more.

There have been far more nuanced arguments than the above, but there are tangible reasons that stats clearly showcase Crosby being on the same tier as McDavid. Its easy for Crosby haters and McDavid fanboys to say, "Well why didn't Crosby win more Harts?" and then when we bring up a season like 2013 where he dominated with 1.61 PPG and was lapping the league before being sidelined again by a cheap shot its like "Well he didn't win it, so your stats are useless, only trophies matter" and so why not chirp back with Crosby's Cups, Olympic Gold, and WJC Gold and showcase how he wins everywhere he goes on every level, and is the leader on the team when doing so?

"There is just nothing tangible, I just don't see it"

Well then you aren't trying to see it, in fact you are making a concerted effort to try not to see it.

The problem is individual accolades and awards compared to TEAM trophies. There are big differences.

Also, Crosby gets a ton of love and the benefit of the doubt due to his injuries. His PPG is also extremely flawed because of his time being injured as well. People give him credit for something he didn’t do….all because of what he probably would have. But still didn’t. We have seen McDavid dominate in ways Crosby was never able to. But instead of giving McDavid the nod, we instead play into the whole idea that Crosby was just as good….we just don’t have the stats or awards to prove it. But let’s still act like he achieved it anyway.

 

[Grifter3511]

If a player with a cup is better than a player without a cup, then Kris Draper>Eric Lindros…

your forgetting some really big context there. Crosby actually allowed Malkin to raise his game in the finals by taking the tougher match ups. That’s how amazing of a leader he is. He straight up sacrificed his own play for the good of the team, something McDavid doesn’t know anything about…stacking points in the finals while his team doesn’t do much…what a loser. Crosbys 3 points in those finals was probably the most important 3 points in finals history. And it wasn’t that he went scoreless In games 6 and 7, he simply turned on his leadership qualities and allowed his team to play at a high level, all while he “willed” his team to victory.

That's nothing. You want real leadership, look no further than Glen Healy in the Rangers 1994 run. He didn't get a single start, but did that stop him? Hardly. He was there, on the bench, game in, game out, watching, listening, and feeding his teammates (the defensemen and Leetch in particular) non stop details and little adjustments he was noticing. Through his leadership, the 54 year drought was ended and Leetch earned himself a Conn Smythe trophy (which rumor has it he let Healy keep over the summer for his efforts).

This may be a total sidebar, but it speaks to the importance and absolute tangibility of leadership qualities, which poor McDavid just doesn't have.

 

[PainForShane]

It's crazy that the Pens org didn't just put guys like Angelo Esposito, Beau Bennett, and Daniel Sprong on Crosby's wing and turn them into quality top six wingers.

What a fail by the org.

Angelo Esposito was traded less than a year after he was drafted while he was still in junior (never played in the NHL). Clearly it's Sid's fault he never played in the NHL since he spent all of his development time in the Blackhawks' org. And Sprong was a second rounder who played a total of 42 games for the Pens before getting traded.

Pretty obvious you're just picking out random names and have no idea what you're talking about. What a fail by you.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

By virtue of quitting.

Nope, he missed just as much time between 1990 and 1996 when he would have raised his average.

 

[PainForShane]

Nope, he missed just as much time between 1990 and 1996 when he would have raised his average.

To be fair one of those years was a lockout year. And you're also talking to Caps fan who based on his fandom is likely predisposed against Penguins in general (totally understandable from my point of view).

All that said, before this convo I didn't actually realize how dominant Lemieux was, the guy was broken down with a herniated disc early on / diagnosed with cancer at 27 years old and still had a dominant career it's an absurd story. AND he played a significant chunk of his career in the dead puck era which no one talks about, 69 goals in 70 games in 95-96, what the actual f***.

Also I know you're talking goals not points, but in his last year Lemieux put up 22 points in 26 games as a 40 year old. His numbers are absolutely absurd (so was the eye test) especially when you consider everything he had to go through just to get on the ice.

I just went on about Hasek a page or two ago, Lemieux's career was at least as unbelievably amazing. Anyway thanks for bringing him up, despite the many trolls in this thread I learned something here. Appreciate that more than you know, thx again for bringing him up

 

[norrisnick]

To be fair one of those years was a lockout year. And you're also talking to Caps fan who based on his fandom is likely predisposed against Penguins in general (totally understandable from my point of view).

All that said, before this convo I didn't actually realize how dominant Lemieux was, the guy was broken down with a herniated disc early on / diagnosed with cancer at 27 years old and still had a dominant career it's an absurd story. AND he played a significant chunk of his career in the dead puck era which no one talks about, 69 goals in 70 games in 95-96, what the actual f***.

Also I know you're talking goals not points, but in his last year Lemieux put up 22 points in 26 games as a 40 year old. His numbers are absolutely absurd (so was the eye test) especially when you consider everything he had to go through just to get on the ice.

I just went on about Hasek a page or two ago, Lemieux's career was at least as unbelievably amazing. Anyway thanks for bringing him up, despite the many trolls in this thread I learned something here. Appreciate that more than you know, thx again for bringing him up

'95-'96 is most certainly not part of the DPE. Mario played 144 regular season games during the DPE.

 

[lawrence]

That is a false equivalency. Honestly you fit right in here.

now its false equivalency? yup. Hfboards.com hasn't changed one bit.

 

[TheAngryHank]

The problem is individual accolades and awards compared to TEAM trophies. There are big differences.

Also, Crosby gets a ton of love and the benefit of the doubt due to his injuries. His PPG is also extremely flawed because of his time being injured as well. People give him credit for something he didn’t do….all because of what he probably would have. But still didn’t. We have seen McDavid dominate in ways Crosby was never able to. But instead of giving McDavid the nod, we instead play into the whole idea that Crosby was just as good….we just don’t have the stats or awards to prove it. But let’s still act like he achieved it anyway.

Have you never herd of grace period?
Crosby has always been given credit for things he didn't do.

 

[HofT]

Crosby has dat core strength

 

[PainForShane]

'95-'96 is most certainly not part of the DPE. Mario played 144 regular season games during the DPE.

Not according to wikipedia. But even before verifying (which I did before writing this message) I'd agree with what wikipedia said ie it started that lockout shortened season when the Devils won the cup. Wings were so much better than the Devils on paper (as I'm sure you know), offense was down that 94-95 season anyway, and after NJ won teams like Devils / Panthers etc knew they could be cup contenders playing shutdown. And then the trend continued.

Anyway I believe 95-96 was certainly in the dead puck era, at the very least it's arguable

 

[BlueSeal]

To get to the tier everyone who supports Connor feel he should be on, McDavid has done everything save one: To lead his team, as Captain, to the Cup. That's the one thing left that he needs to do if we're going to compare him to Cup and Conn Smythe-winning Captains. At this point stats don't matter, he has all of those. He now needs the Cup.

 

[SavoieSeason]

I think your tiers are occupying too wide of a variance.

The purpose of a tier is to establish a level of player that is comparable - as in it could go either way.

There is no rational argument for Lemieux or Orr over Gretzky. In fact Gretzky takes a giant dump on their careers, game-for-game, and then has another hall of fame career after that (relative to Orr at least). So they cannot be on the same tier.

A more rational set would be more like:

Tier 1: Gretzky alone

Tier 2: Gordie Howe alone

Tier 3: Lemieux and Orr (assuming longevity is worth practically nothing)

Tier 4: Ovechkin, Crosby, Bobby Hull, Beliveau, Jagr, McDavid (projecting some here), Hasek,

Tier 5: Yzerman, Messier, Maurice Richard, Lidstrom, Bourque, etc.

Gordie Howe alone at 2 worst list of all time LOOL

 

[mattihp]

Crosby is more determined and has some defensive skills and instincts too. At the same age I would rather pick Crosby to lead my team.

 

[67 others]

When I say stickhandle around defenders, I'm talking about taking defenders head on facing toward them. Crosby did that more early in his career, but it was never as big of a part of his game as it is for McDavid. Handling the puck in the corners with his back to them is not the same thing, that's more puck protection and body positioning, not stick handling. And saying that is completely his game is definitely not accurate, because this has become far less common for him to do the past 4 or 5 years.

Strange stance. That video and the first one has him losing guys via positioning, making space, then stickhandling through and around guys pretty regularly.

If all you want to focus on is straight up and down speed and transition beating defenders, then yeah McDavid is better on the rush.

And why does it matter that old man Sid does this less in the past few years? Are we only comparing modern McDavid to 35 year old Crosby in this thread? Or are we comparing careers thus far?

 

[67 others]

Gordie Howe alone at 2 worst list of all time LOOL

That's not a silly stance if you value longevity and durability.

Gordie Howe was a defensively strong and physical forward top 5 in scoring for 20 straight years and won scoring titles by some pretty big margins. 95 points in a 70 game 1953 tight checking season was akin to a 170 point season in the 80s.

Howe's Hart trophies are comparable or in some cases, far better than Mark Messier's 1990 hart season

 

[daver]

Back in 2015 hockey fans were victimized by fans who hated Sidney Crosby with nonsensical reasons why Jonathan toews was equal to or arguably better than Sidney Crosby

Things like
Leadership
Being a born winner
Clutch ability
Elevating teammates

And other non tangible hockey skills. A meme was born , “Toews intangibles”

Now these same penguin fans, along with fans who hate and or are jealous of McDavid, are trying to use the same nonsensical reasons on the rest of the hockey world

Just like the toews conversations look silly today, these conversations will look silly 3,4,5 years from now

You can argue that Crosby is as productive an offensive player as McDavid is, you cannot do the same with Toews.

Now you can separate their similar offensive prowess with other things they bring to the table besides offense.

 

[bobholly39]

Back in 2015 hockey fans were victimized by fans who hated Sidney Crosby with nonsensical reasons why Jonathan toews was equal to or arguably better than Sidney Crosby

Things like
Leadership
Being a born winner
Clutch ability
Elevating teammates

And other non tangible hockey skills. A meme was born , “Toews intangibles”

Now these same penguin fans, along with fans who hate and or are jealous of McDavid, are trying to use the same nonsensical reasons on the rest of the hockey world

Just like the toews conversations look silly today, these conversations will look silly 3,4,5 years from now

There's just the stupidest takes in this thread.

Yes - intelligent people hated when people tried to rise Toews to Crosby's level due to intangibles, for obvious reasons.

But Crosby having the edge in intangibles vs McDavid isn't the same, because they are comparable players, unlike Toews and Crosby.

If you want a true parallel - it would be more people arguing last playoffs "hey, Barkov >> McDavid because of intangibles". Ridiculous take, just like Toews > Crosby, since Barkov is nowhere near McDavid.

If you want to compare Crosby to McDavid however? Or - if you wanted to compare Toews vs Barkov? Or Lemieux vs Gretzky? Or Bourque vs Lidstrom? Or other two players that can be said to be relatively close - looking at elements like the ones you listed (ie - intangibles) is definitely something worth considering.

Are intangibles alone enough to give Crosby the overall edge vs McDavid? I dunno - I'm not saying they are, but they're definitely a plus in his favor.

Like I said - this thread has the stupidest takes. Still remember that Oiler fan a few pages back arguing Crosby wasn't a generational player.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Anyway I believe 95-96 was certainly in the dead puck era, at the very least it's arguable

It was not really. 95-96 was a crackdown year where they tried to get obstruction out again and it resulted in a season very much like 05-06 with a ton of PP driven seasons. Like Lemieux's.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Strange stance. That video and the first one has him losing guys via positioning, making space, then stickhandling through and around guys pretty regularly.

If all you want to focus on is straight up and down speed and transition beating defenders, then yeah McDavid is better on the rush.

And why does it matter that old man Sid does this less in the past few years? Are we only comparing modern McDavid to 35 year old Crosby in this thread? Or are we comparing careers thus far?

Well if you read my original post, I pretty specifically talked about how he has changed his game as he has gotten older and carries the puck less, so yeah if you want to miss the original point of what I was saying I guess it doesn't matter. I don't see how it's a weird stance, it's a pretty key difference in how they create chances.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

It was not really. 95-96 was a crackdown year where they tried to get obstruction out again and it resulted in a season very much like 05-06 with a ton of PP driven seasons. Like Lemieux's.

More players scored 100+ points in 1996, than they did in all of the dead puck era (1997 to 2004) combined.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The intangibles argument has always been people talking out of their buttholes.

It was gibberish for Toews and it’s precisely as dumb for Crosby.