Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Midnight Judges]

Nope, he missed just as much time between 1990 and 1996 when he would have raised his average.

Mario quit and only played 150 games after age 31.

By comparison, Gretzky played 488 games after age 31.

It's not some sort of advantage to Gretzky's career adjusted PPG here.

 

[daver]

Malkin took advantage of Sid’s line getting top matchups in 09

And McDavid had considerably better linemates than Malkin. At best, that about evens things out.

Even ignoring that, that’s like saying is Malkins 36 points that much more impressive than Logan coutures 30 in 2016?

So it's all about points is it? Malkin's eight points in the SCF were key to the Pens winning. He notably stepped up in Game 3 to get the Pens going.

McDavid didn't produce until it was too late in Game 3 to matter and to matter, ultimately in the SCF, to matter.

Malkin and Crosby in 2009 were better than McDavid in 2024 thru three rounds.

 

[Frank Drebin]

And McDavid had considerably better linemates than Malkin. At best, that about evens things out.



So it's all about points is it? Malkin's eight points in the SCF were key to the Pens winning. He notably stepped up in Game 3 to get the Pens going.

McDavid didn't produce until it was too late in Game 3 to matter and to matter, ultimately in the SCF, to matter.

Malkin and Crosby in 2009 were better than McDavid in 2024 thru three rounds.

Malkins conn smythe in 2009 is not really relevant to this discussion, I made the mistake of going down that rabbit hole and regret it so let’s stick to Crosbys 3 points that final series being enough and mcdavids 11 being not enough

 

[daver]

Malkins conn smythe in 2009 is not really relevant to this discussion, I made the mistake of going down that rabbit hole and regret it so let’s stick to Crosbys 3 points that final series being enough and mcdavids 11 being not enough

Malkin's Conn Smythe was brought up in response to the over the top narrative around McDavid's 2024 playoff run being head and shoulders above any other playoff run since Wayne and Mario.

I think McDavid's SCF was on par with Crosby's 2008 SCF; satisfactory efforts in a losing effort in their first attempt.

I think McDavid in 2024 was not as good as Crosby was 2009 in the 3 rounds leading up to their respective SCF's making the overall value of their runs debatable.

I don't McDavid is on another tier than Crosby.

 

[PainForShane]

Malkins conn smythe in 2009 is not really relevant to this discussion, I made the mistake of going down that rabbit hole and regret it so let’s stick to Crosbys 3 points that final series being enough and mcdavids 11 being not enough

I think his point was that McDavid's points in the SCF didn't come at time when it mattered. I believe this is his point bc he literally repeated this idea 3 times in a single sentence just to make sure his idea got across.

So the relevant stat would actually be McDavid 1 relevant point in 4 games. (games 1, 2, 3, 7 where he had the primary assist on first goal in gm 2). Both points in Gm 3 came after team down 4-1 going into the third. Pointless in game 7, if he would've had even a single point that game likely goes into overtime and who knows what happens then.

Of course, as you are no doubt aware McDavid did have multiple 4 point games when his team was already down 3-0 (ie series basically lost, also at least a few of those points served no real purpose other than to run up the score). Not sure that's not the flex you seem to think it is.

***

To be clear, I'm not saying McD sucks, that's not what I'm saying at all. McDavid's great and is almost certainly the best player in the world right now. Easy first ballot hall of famer no question. But he's not head and shoulders above his current peers and he's not head and shoulders above what Crosby was in his prime

 

[Frank Drebin]

Malkin's Conn Smythe was brought up in response to the over the top narrative around McDavid's 2024 playoff run being head and shoulders above any other playoff run since Wayne and Mario.

I think McDavid's SCF was on par with Crosby's 2008 SCF; satisfactory efforts in a losing effort in their first attempt.

I think McDavid in 2024 was not as good as Crosby was 2009 in the 3 rounds leading up to their respective SCF's making the overall value of their runs debatable.

I don't McDavid is on another tier than Crosby.

Agree to disagree
I don’t think that 42 points in 25 games is either just satisfactory or not good enough to win. Pretty hard to explain that when Crosby scored 19 and 27 points in his back to back 24game cup wins.

I do think that mcdavid is a better player than Crosby ever was and by default that puts him on another tier

I think his point was that McDavid's points in the SCF didn't come at time when it mattered. I believe this is his point bc he literally repeated this idea 3 times in a single sentence just to make sure his idea got across.

So the relevant stat would actually be McDavid 1 relevant point in 4 games. (games 1, 2, 3, 7 where he had the primary assist on first goal in gm 2). Both points in Gm 3 came after team down 4-1 going into the third. Pointless in game 7, if he would've had even a single point that game likely goes into overtime and who knows what happens then.

Of course, as you are no doubt aware McDavid did have multiple 4 point games when his team was already down 3-0 (ie series basically lost, also at least a few of those points served no real purpose other than to run up the score). Not sure that's not the flex you seem to think it is.

***

To be clear, I'm not saying McD sucks, that's not what I'm saying at all. McDavid's great and is almost certainly the best player in the world right now. Easy first ballot hall of famer no question. But he's not head and shoulders above his current peers and he's not head and shoulders above what Crosby was in his prime

This is all f***ing nonsense, it’s getting more and more ridiculous by the day

 

[Grifter3511]

There's just the stupidest takes in this thread.

Yes - intelligent people hated when people tried to rise Toews to Crosby's level due to intangibles, for obvious reasons.

But Crosby having the edge in intangibles vs McDavid isn't the same, because they are comparable players, unlike Toews and Crosby.

If you want a true parallel - it would be more people arguing last playoffs "hey, Barkov >> McDavid because of intangibles". Ridiculous take, just like Toews > Crosby, since Barkov is nowhere near McDavid.

If you want to compare Crosby to McDavid however? Or - if you wanted to compare Toews vs Barkov? Or Lemieux vs Gretzky? Or Bourque vs Lidstrom? Or other two players that can be said to be relatively close - looking at elements like the ones you listed (ie - intangibles) is definitely something worth considering.

Are intangibles alone enough to give Crosby the overall edge vs McDavid? I dunno - I'm not saying they are, but they're definitely a plus in his favor.

Like I said - this thread has the stupidest takes. Still remember that Oiler fan a few pages back arguing Crosby wasn't a generational player.

Unless intangibles can be separated and analyzed and directly attributed to said player, I don't think they have any place in a comparison. Almost every single intangible can also be explained by coaching choices, linemates, organizational competence, etc etc.

 

[PainForShane]

Agree to disagree
I don’t think that 42 points in 25 games is either just satisfactory or not good enough to win. Pretty hard to explain that when Crosby scored 19 and 27 points in his back to back 24game cup wins.

I do think that mcdavid is a better player than Crosby ever was and by default that puts him on another tier


This is all f***ing nonsense, it’s getting more and more ridiculous by the day

The f***ing nonsense is repeatedly bringing up McDavid's 11 points in the SCF when 8 of those points came after in games after the team was already down 3-0. Also 0 points in the last two games (in a losing effort). And then repeatedly using that stat line to imply he was a tier above prime Crosby

 

[Frank Drebin]

The nonsense is repeatedly bringing up McDavid's 11 points in the SCF when 8 of those points came after the team was already down 3-0. Also 0 points in the last two games in a losing effort. And then repeatedly implying that performance means he was a tier above prime Crosby

Which prime Crosby?

The one that scored 3 points in 7 games in the final in 2009? 1g 2a

The one that scored 19 in 24 in 2016? 0g 4a in 6 games in the final

Or the one that scored 27 in 24 in 2017 ?
1g 6a in 6 games in the final, 3 of those points coming in a 6-0 blowout? Another 2 p in the 5-1 opening game when things didn’t matter?

 

[pi314]

Malkins conn smythe in 2009 is not really relevant to this discussion, I made the mistake of going down that rabbit hole and regret it so let’s stick to Crosbys 3 points that final series being enough and mcdavids 11 being not enough

See, this is the problem with just quoting points mindlessly as most people do.

McDavid has 1 game where he basically single-handedly won by himself.

He had 4 points in an 8-1 game AFTER the game was already out of reach. His team would've won with or without him.

He had one 4 point game where he basically won by himself.

2 points in a loss where it was already too late.

1 point in another less where it didn't matter.

And on top of all that, scoring is up 15% league wide.

Plus, it's not apples to apples. He didn't go against an army of hall of fame defenders.

Sid has been to the dance 4 times.

Game 6 against San Jose.

Stanley Cup on the line.

He sets up Letang for the game winner right after the game is deadlocked.

Then late in the 3rd period, blocks a shot with the Stanley Cup on the line. Seals the victory.

But yeah... points.

Not winning.

Which is actually the point of the game.

 

[PainForShane]

Which prime Crosby?

The one that scored 3 points in 7 games in the final in 2009? 1g 2a

The one that scored 19 in 24 in 2016? 0g 4a in 6 games in the final

Or the one that scored 27 in 24 in 2017 1g 6a in 6 games in the final

I'm sorry. You do realize that McDavid's 11 points in this year's final included 0 points in the last two games and arguably only one point (primary assist on first goal in gm 2) that might have affected the outcome of the series?

Sid won the Conn Smythe in 2016 and 2017, in 2009 he finished second on the team with 31 points in 24 playoff games. Wtf are you talking about. And then you accuse other people of f***ing nonsense. Look in the mirror my friend

 

[Frank Drebin]

See, this is the problem with just quoting points mindlessly as most people do.

McDavid has 1 game where he basically single-handedly won by himself.

He had 4 points in an 8-1 game AFTER the game was already out of reach. His team would've won with or without him.

He had one 4 point game where he basically won by himself.

2 points in a loss where it was already too late.

1 point in another less where it didn't matter.

And on top of all that, scoring is up 15% league wide.

Plus, it's not apples to apples. He didn't go against an army of hall of fame defenders.

Sid has been to the dance 4 times.

Game 6 against San Jose.

Stanley Cup on the line.

He sets up Letang for the game winner right after the game is deadlocked.

Then late in the 3rd period, blocks a shot with the Stanley Cup on the line. Seals the victory.

But yeah... points.

Not winning.

Which is actually the point of the game.

Intangibles, clutch, born winner etc

I'm sorry. You do realize that McDavid's 11 points in this year's final included 0 points in the last two games and arguably only one point (primary assist on first goal in gm 2) that might have affected the outcome of the series?

Sid won the Conn Smythe in 2016 and 2017, in 2009 he finished second on the team with 31 points in 24 playoff games. Wtf are you talking about

Which prime Crosby finals performance comes close to what mcdavid did this season?

 

[PainForShane]

Intangibles, clutch, born winner etc


Which prime Crosby finals performance comes close to what mcdavid did this season?

All of them. McDavid scored one relevant point all series. This is not hard to understand.

If McDavid had scored those 8 points (the ones he scored in gms 4/5) spread out among the first three games (rather than after his team was already down 3-0), I think most would agree we would likely be having a very different discussion right now. That is what intangibles, clutch, born winner etc refer to and their impact in helping the team win is why those things are important.

Do you actually believe what you're arguing?

 

[daver]

Agree to disagree
I don’t think that 42 points in 25 games is either just satisfactory or not good enough to win. Pretty hard to explain that when Crosby scored 19 and 27 points in his back to back 24game cup wins.

I said his SCF performance against Florida was the same as Crosby's against Detroit in 2008.

 

[Frank Drebin]

All of them. McDavid scored one relevant point all series. This is not hard to understand.

If McDavid had scored those 8 gm 4/5 points spread out among the first three games (rather than after his team was already down 3-0), I think most would agree we would likely be having a very different discussion right now. That is what intangibles, clutch, born winner etc refer to and their impact in helping the team win is why those things are important.

Do you actually believe what you're arguing?

Relevant points, I’ll be sure to remember that one

I said his SCF performance against Florida was the same as Crosby's against Detroit in 2008.

Crosbys best scf was ironically in a losing effort

Gonna need a concise definition of what a relevant point is

 

[daver]

Crosbys best scf was ironically in a losing effort

Nope, his best SCF was in 2017.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Nope, his best SCF was in 2017.

He scored a bunch of irrelevant points that series

 

[PainForShane]

He scored a bunch of irrelevant points that series

Not more than McDavid did in this one

EDIT: was curious so actually just looked this up. Sid made potentially game altering offensive contributions in games 1, 3, 4, 5. I don't remember the series as much (it was a while ago), but 5 of his 7 points came when the teams were either tied or within one of each other (other 2 were assists in a blowout win).

2017 NHL Stanley Cup Final: NSH vs. PIT | Hockey-Reference.com

2017 NHL Stanley Cup Final: NSH vs. PIT

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[Frank Drebin]

Clutch
Born winner
Leadership
Elevating teammates
Intangibles
Relevant point getter

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Which prime Crosby?

The one that scored 3 points in 7 games in the final in 2009? 1g 2a

The one that scored 19 in 24 in 2016? 0g 4a in 6 games in the final

Or the one that scored 27 in 24 in 2017 ?
1g 6a in 6 games in the final, 3 of those points coming in a 6-0 blowout? Another 2 p in the 5-1 opening game when things didn’t matter?

You seem unable or unwilling to grasp other people's arguments, or are just arguing in bad faith. Saying that the opening game in a series didn't matter, especially when the player in question had assists on the opening two goals is just dumb.

 

[norrisnick]

Mario and Sid's inability to stay healthy has trained generations of a fanbase to delve so deeply into the land of make-believe and what ifs that they can't see reality for what it is anymore.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

He scored a bunch of irrelevant points that series

You're a liar and dragging down this site.

Crosby's points that series:
1-0 in G1
2-0 in G1
1-0 in G3
1-1 in G4
1-0 in G5
4-0 in G5
5-0 in G5

There are one or two points that made little difference. The rest were extremely valuable to his team's chances of winning that game.

Sorry your boy McDavid is a born loser and just puts up points when the other team stops trying

 

[Mrb1p]

Context

 

[norrisnick]

Speaking of make-believe and what-ifs...

 

[Xspyrit]

McDavid is objectively better. Crosby is in the tier just below which is still very high among all-time greats

At least as long as McDavid doesn't have Cups on his resume, some people will be able to hide behind that argument

And how the hell did 26% voted for "No, Crosby is the better player."

I have always said that hockey is the sport that its fans know the less about the game. Kinda normal though with how many variables there is.