Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[BraveCanadian]

Stop using "era adjustments" from hockey-reference.... pleeeeassee

 

[norrisnick]

If the foundation of your position in an argument rests squarely on magically turning 99 games with an admittedly impressive 159 points into 246 games and an absurd 436 points, you should probably bow out.

If you take any player's 3 season run of lowest production and inflate them to being your 3 highest scoring seasons in succession, that's going to impact player rankings. But it's not meaningful in anyway.

 

[crowfish]

Context

A good example of how flawed and insanely generous these sorts of comparisons are for Crosby

McDavid in 2023, scores 100 assists in 76 games, gets credit for 106 "era adjusted 82/pace" assists

Crosby in 2011 scores 29 assists in 22 games, gets credit for 119 "era adjusted 82/pace" assists

 

[Midnight Judges]

You seem unable or unwilling to grasp other people's arguments, or are just arguing in bad faith.

Indeed, everyone should argue in good faith. Fair point.

Sorry your boy McDavid is a born loser and just puts up points when the other team stops trying

Alrighty then.

 

[norrisnick]

A good example of how flawed and insanely generous these sorts of comparisons are for Crosby

McDavid in 2023, scores 100 assists in 76 games, gets credit for 106 "era adjusted 82/pace" assists

Crosby in 2011 scores 29 assists in 22 games, gets credit for 119 "era adjusted 82/pace" assists

It created 277 points from games he didn't play purely from the '10-'11 through '12-'13 seasons.

 

[daver]

It created 277 points from games he didn't play purely from the '10-'11 through '12-'13 seasons.

It didn't create anything. It clearly says pace.

Crosby was clearly on another level in those seasons but bad luck kept him from putting up full seasons.

 

[Midnight Judges]

It didn't create anything. It clearly says pace.

Crosby was clearly on another level in those seasons but bad luck kept him from putting up full seasons.

It wasn't bad luck. It was Lindros-like poor on-ice awareness.

 

[norrisnick]

It didn't create anything. It clearly says pace.

Crosby was clearly on another level in those seasons but bad luck kept him from putting up full seasons.

Pace for games you didn't play, doesn't matter. PPG stuck in the pressbox isn't going to win you any games.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Pace for games you didn't play, doesn't matter. PPG stuck in the pressbox isn't going to win you any games.

Sure you want him playing games but it shows that they are at a similar level. One just had devastating injuries.

 

[daver]

Pace for games you didn't play, doesn't matter. PPG stuck in the pressbox isn't going to win you any games.

Wow, are you some sort of guru? That's some deep shit right there. The OP is asking about tiers, not who had better luck with in juries.

 

[norrisnick]

Wow, are you some sort of guru? That's some deep shit right there. The OP is asking about tiers, not who had better luck with in juries.

It doesn't take a guru to hold the belief that a guy who plays is a tier above a guy who doesn't. Doubly so if the guy who plays is better when they play to boot...

Same reason Howe > Mario or Orr

 

[Midnight Judges]

Wow, are you some sort of guru? That's some deep shit right there. The OP is asking about tiers, not who had better luck with in juries.

Oh well in that case Eric Lindros is one of the greatest players of all time.

 

[dukeofjive]

Anybody else remember when messier was named the better player after the oilers won the cup without Gretzky?

Yea me neither…

 

[daver]

It doesn't take a guru to hold the belief that a guy who plays is a tier above a guy who doesn't. Doubly so if the guy who plays is better when they play to boot...

Same reason Howe > Mario or Orr

Noone places Howe on a "tier above" Orr and Mario. They rate his career value as higher, but not as a better player. He arguably is on a lower tier if one only looked at offense.

 

[Frank Drebin]

It didn't create anything. It clearly says pace.

Crosby was clearly on another level in those seasons but bad luck kept him from putting up full seasons.

So what did McDavid pace for in the 22 and 23 playoffs if he played, say 24 games

Or pace doesn’t apply there?

 

[norrisnick]

Noone places Howe on a "tier above" Orr and Mario. They rate his career value as higher, but not as a better player. He arguably is on a lower tier if one only looked at offense.

I exist.

And ranking hockey players only via offense is a bit silly.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

It doesn't take a guru to hold the belief that a guy who plays is a tier above a guy who doesn't. Doubly so if the guy who plays is better when they play to boot...

Same reason Howe > Mario or Orr

Nah not anymore. Nearly everyone puts Howe at #4 in the big four nowadays. Weaker more primitive league.

 

[Frank Drebin]

1 gretz
2 Mario / bobby
3 howe
4 the rest

I can see at the end of his career mcdavid being alone in his own tier

Whether it’s above or below Mr hockey is yet to be determined

He’ll either finish as a 2a or 3a tier

 

[Cruor]

Wayne's been on record many times saying he thinks Gordie was the best player ever. The interview I showed is the first and only time I've ever heard or seen him say, "there is no question xxx, if healthy, would've broken all my records" about a peer or someone who played after him.

Again, before that interview, I never heard him say that about anyone. He may have said something similar about another player (other than Mr. Hockey), but I don't think he did.

***

Put a different way, Gretz is nice and generally complimentary of most other players, and Gretz also thinks Mario was so good that there's "no question, if healthy, Mario would've broken all the records."

Anyway this all means Wayne himself thinks a healthy Mario would've been on his level and then some. Again, it's not just Pens fans it's Wayne Gretzky himself

I remember Wayne saying that Fedorov was the best player in the world and would break all of his records, this was just as Feds was smuggled into NA and hadn't even stepped on ice yet. He's notorious for this kind of stuff.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Noone places Howe on a "tier above" Orr and Mario. They rate his career value as higher, but not as a better player. He arguably is on a lower tier if one only looked at offense.

I place Howe on a tier above Lemieux and Orr. So does Wayne Gretzky.

That’s not hard to justify at all. Howe has double the MVPs as those guys and much greater longevity too.

 

[norrisnick]

Howe did what Mario or Orr did. And then played another Trottier/Clarke/Mikita level HOF career afterwards...

 

[Frank Drebin]

I remember Wayne saying that Fedorov was the best player in the world and would break all of his records, this was just as Feds was smuggled into NA and hadn't even stepped on ice yet. He's notorious for this kind of stuff.

Wayne has said all kinds of ridiculous stuff

I swear he said something about Mike ribeiro at the start of his career

Howe did what Mario or Orr did. And then played another Trottier/Clarke/Mikita level HOF career afterwards...

Howe is just so far from a different era its just hard to compare

 

[Midnight Judges]

Nah not anymore. Nearly everyone puts Howe at #4 in the big four nowadays. Weaker more primitive league.

The consensus in the history forum as of 2019 was Howe at 2 - ahead of Lemieux and Orr.

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time The following is the final list of the top hockey players of all-time as determined by 32 voting members of the History of Hockey community. Report any errors to @quoipourquoi RankPlayerPositionBornNationBirth City 1Wayne GretzkyC1961CanadaBrantford...

forums.hfboards.com

The misrepresentations from Crosby fans become more unhinged by the hour.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Not according to wikipedia. But even before verifying (which I did before writing this message) I'd agree with what wikipedia said ie it started that lockout shortened season when the Devils won the cup. Wings were so much better than the Devils on paper (as I'm sure you know), offense was down that 94-95 season anyway, and after NJ won teams like Devils / Panthers etc knew they could be cup contenders playing shutdown. And then the trend continued.

Anyway I believe 95-96 was certainly in the dead puck era, at the very least it's arguable

There were twelve 100 point players that year. Mario hit 160 points, Jagr hit 149. While Sakic, Francis, and Forsberg hit 115-120 points. Not to mention the 25+ players that were at a PPG or better. 1996 was not the DPE.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Malkin's Conn Smythe was brought up in response to the over the top narrative around McDavid's 2024 playoff run being head and shoulders above any other playoff run since Wayne and Mario.

I think McDavid's SCF was on par with Crosby's 2008 SCF; satisfactory efforts in a losing effort in their first attempt.

I think McDavid in 2024 was not as good as Crosby was 2009 in the 3 rounds leading up to their respective SCF's making the overall value of their runs debatable.

I don't McDavid is on another tier than Crosby.

You have yet to explain these two points but continue arguing the same thing. In what way was Crosby better than McDavid in these circumstances?

At this point all your doing is saying “because he’s Crosby and I say so.”

All of them. McDavid scored one relevant point all series. This is not hard to understand.

If McDavid had scored those 8 points (the ones he scored in gms 4/5) spread out among the first three games (rather than after his team was already down 3-0), I think most would agree we would likely be having a very different discussion right now. That is what intangibles, clutch, born winner etc refer to and their impact in helping the team win is why those things are important.

Do you actually believe what you're arguing?

What kind of logic is this? You are really going to say McDavid scored ONE “relevant” point during that Stanley cup series?

“It’s not hard to understand.” Oh yes it is, because you’re straight up just making things up at this point.