Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[PainForShane]

He said the same thing about half the NHL, though.

I'm sure he did. Where did you get this information? About half the NHL means over 150 forwards on any given night during the season.

I would absolutely love to see a video where Gretz listed over 150 forwards who would've broken all of his records. And actually the total number should be higher than that because historical numbers (ie players from prior years) are more relevant to this particular convo.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Frank Drebin]

I'm sure he did. Where did you get this information from? About half the NHL means over 150 forwards on any given night.

I would absolutely love to see a video where Gretz listed 150 forwards who would've broken all of his records.

If you can't produce that video, you are clearly full of s***.

Thanks!

The implied point was very clear. Gretzky has been notoriously generous with praise.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

McDavid's game relies on his genius hockey IQ, speed, and insane hands. He skates like Bure, passes like Crosby & stickhandles like Datsyuk. "Soley speed" is a terrible description of his game.



Tier 1 - Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, McDavid

Tier 2 - Howe, Crosby

McDavid does not have genius hockey IQ, not even close. You don't understand what you're watching

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I could be wrong, but I don't think Mario had cancer in 1991 or 1992, for any player to put up numbers comparable to Gretzky/Lemieux from what they were doing in the early 90s to today is insane.

To do that while your shot release is basically halving your goal scoring is totally bonkers.

There's no one else that could do that IMO. Not Sid or Ovy. I don't even know if you put 1991 Mario or Wayne into the sport today if they could match their own numbers.

The league is a lot better today, the average forward/D/goalie/coach are all better than the average player from 30 years ago.

I don't think we have any details on McDavid's injury or how much it affected him. I don't recall seeing any news about a surgery, and his 60 goal season appears to be an outlier

 

[BraveCanadian]

I'm sure he did. Where did you get this information? About half the NHL means over 150 forwards on any given night during the season.

I would absolutely love to see a video where Gretz listed over 150 forwards who would've broken all of his records. And actually the total number should be higher than that because historical numbers (ie players from prior years) are more relevant to this particular convo.

Thanks in advance!

Yeah, not going to happen, but if you don't know how many times Gretzky has pumped up various players as being challengers to his records or better than him then.. I don't know what to say.

 

[PainForShane]

The implied point was very clear. Gretzky has been notoriously generous with praise.

You do realize he could've just... said his point like a normal person (like you just did) instead of going out of his way to wildly exaggerate by a factor of at least a hundred. 'Half the league would have broken all my records' my ass, Gretz never said anything close to resembling that. And then he responds with an "I don't know what to say if you don't understand what I meant" get over yourself with 15,000 posts over almost 15 years you should've learned how to say what you actually mean by now. @BraveCanadian

***

Re: Hasek, beyond the incredible stats / awards (incl 6 Vezinas in 8 years, 5 Hart nominations / 2 wins etc), he was a unique talent. He played the game like no one else before or since, was better than everyone else while doing it, and he was the best goalie in the league for a good 8 or so years, shooters never figured him out despite their best efforts. Almost certainly would've racked up more trophies if he'd won the starters crease earlier than at 29 (the delay was through no fault of his own, the NHL had ever seen his style of play so how can you trust this random crazy Czech guy flopping around).

More specifically the other goalies that were in the convo at the time were Roy and Brodeur who both revolutionized the game. Goalies wouldn't be playing the puck as much without Brodeur or playing butterfly with Roy, but you can copy that stuff because it's easy to learn and reproduce.

With Hasek, how many goalies are spinning around doing snow angels in attempt to stop the puck? I can't think of a single one at the NHL level before or since, meaning you can't replicate what he did. AND he was the very best at his position for a long time AND he took care of his body / had a long career so despite starting late he was still able to stay good into his 40s (which is absurd for a goalie) AND he took terrible Buffalo teams deep runs multiple times AND that Olympic shootout before shootouts were a thing.

***

Anyway that's my reasoning. You can agree or not, that's fine. But to me I don't expect to ever see a goalie better than Hasek, so to me he belongs in that top tier alongside Gretz, Lemieux, Orr, Howe.

I think Gretz probably does belong in his own tier but if he himself confidently says "there's no question Lemieux would've broken all my records" I'm not going to doubt him. Yes Gretz praises lots of people but to my knowledge he hasn't said anything that strongly worded about anybody else, let alone "half the NHL" as that other poster claimed

 

[BraveCanadian]

You do realize he could've just... said his point like a normal person (like you just did) instead of going out of his way to wildly exaggerate by a factor of at least a hundred. 'Half the league would have broken all my records' my ass, Gretz never said anything close to resembling that. And then he responds with an "I don't know what to say if you don't understand what I meant" get over yourself with 15,000 posts over almost 15 years you should've learned how to say what you actually mean by now. @BraveCanadian

Ok captain pedantic

 

[PainForShane]

Ok captain pedantic

Probably simpler for you to just say what you mean rather than go after others about this. Not my problem (or anyone else's) that you said something dumb that also wasn't what you meant

 

[BraveCanadian]

I don't think we have any details on McDavid's injury or how much it affected him. I don't recall seeing any news about a surgery, and his 60 goal season appears to be an outlier

Like Crosby's 50 goal season, then..

 

[daver]

Like Crosby's 50 goal season, then..

A 2nd Rocket makes your remark look less smart than you hoped it would be.

 

[Dust]

I don't think we have any details on McDavid's injury or how much it affected him. I don't recall seeing any news about a surgery, and his 60 goal season appears to be an outlier

I don't think you can really call any of the guys at the top of the league out for outlier season's. They did it because they are that good and wanted to prove it to everyone. I'm sure he could pot 60 again if he wanted to easily enough.

 

[PainForShane]

Like Crosby's 50 goal season, then..

Did you actually mean to say Crosby or someone else? Because the post you quoted was a response in a conversation comparing McDavid to Gretzky / Lemieux

 

[TheGoldenJet]

In the modern NHL? It's possible, what happens in any sport is the pack rises to the cream of the crop, hockey development is so much better today and players all study each other from age 6/7 and the coaching/developer from young ages is so much more developed.

Kucherov would put up an incredible amount of points in the 80s or 90s, more than he does now.

Lets be honest too the only reason McDavid didn't win the Art Ross again this year is because he was playing with a bad abdominal tear for basically the entire year from game 4 onwards and could not get the same torque on his shot. You don't just randomly go from 64 goals down to 32 goals.

What a crock. McDavid hurt his belly later in the year, it doesn’t excuse him being outscored by two lesser players this year and losing the Hart and Art. He played most of the season relatively healthy. And his abdominal injury was way overblown, it won’t require surgery and the guy is already wakeboarding on it and put up a 42 point playoff run with that injury, so he really has no excuse for getting outscored by lesser players his year while at his peak.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Re: Hasek, beyond the incredible stats / awards (incl 6 Vezinas in 8 years, 5 Hart nominations / 2 wins etc), he was a unique talent. He played the game like no one else before or since, was better than everyone else while doing it, and he was the best goalie in the league for a good 8 or so years, shooters never figured him out despite their best efforts. Almost certainly would've racked up more trophies if he'd won the starters crease earlier than at 29 (the delay was through no fault of his own, the NHL had ever seen his style of play so how can you trust this random crazy Czech guy flopping around).

More specifically the other goalies that were in the convo at the time were Roy and Brodeur who both revolutionized the game. Goalies wouldn't be playing the puck as much without Brodeur or playing butterfly with Roy, but you can copy that stuff because it's easy to learn and reproduce.

With Hasek, how many goalies are spinning around doing snow angels in attempt to stop the puck? I can't think of a single one at the NHL level before or since, meaning you can't replicate what he did. AND he was the very best at his position for a long time AND he took care of his body / had a long career so despite starting late he was still able to stay good into his 40s (which is absurd for a goalie) AND he took terrible Buffalo teams deep runs multiple times AND that Olympic shootout before shootouts were a thing.

So, I kind of baited you into this reply. Not maliciously but to prove a point.

And I'm a huge fan of Hasek and agree with everything you said. You notice how you never even mentioned his two cups in 2002 as a starter and 2008 as a backup?

Its because they don't really change what he did in his prime, which is what his legacy is based on.

The same thing goes for McDavid. If he chases cups in his 30s playing for 1m a year with whatever contender he chooses, will that really elevate into a different tier?

The "hasn't won a cup" angle is wrong. We know its wrong. We don't have Matt Murray above Lundqvist, Price or Luongo. Why? Because he simply wasn't a better goalie than those 3.

Ultimately thats how McDavid and Crosby will be compared, not by the team accomplishments and the made up intangibles that people like to assign to "proven winners".

 

[Volica]

Here is the hottest of hot takes.
I don't think Connor McDavid will be a near 100 point player when he's 37.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I don't think anyone else since Wayne or Mario could do what he just did this past April/May/June, again I'm not even sure Wayne or Mario could do it in the modern league.

This is what causes the hyperbole for me. Is what he did even more impressive than Malkin in 09? Malkin had 36 points with 6 more goals than McDavid in one less game, in a lower scoring environment.

Did you watch Wayne or Mario especially? You could drop Mario in any era and he would dominate. How could you watch Mario play and think he couldn’t do what McDavid just did? Silly.

 

[Soundwave]

This is what causes the hyperbole for me. Is what he did even more impressive than Malkin in 09? Malkin had 36 points with 6 more goals than McDavid in one less game, in a lower scoring environment.

Did you watch Wayne or Mario especially? You could drop Mario in any era and he would dominate. How could you watch Mario play and think he couldn’t do what McDavid just did? Silly.

I not only watched Gretzky play I've seen him practice multiple times in his prime on the Oilers multiple times. Seen Mario play live about 3 times also.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Gretzky himself said that in his opinion, Lemieux if healthy would've broken all of his records.



Pretty sure Gretz knows more about hockey than all of us put together (by quite a lot)

And yet it didn't happen, nor was it even close to happening. Gretzky has more assists than Lemieux has points despite Gretzky being the all-time goals leader.

Gretzky is an extremely gracious person - that is the takeaway here.

 

[Frank Drebin]

This is what causes the hyperbole for me. Is what he did even more impressive than Malkin in 09? Malkin had 36 points with 6 more goals than McDavid in one less game, in a lower scoring environment.

Did you watch Wayne or Mario especially? You could drop Mario in any era and he would dominate. How could you watch Mario play and think he couldn’t do what McDavid just did? Silly.

Malkin took advantage of Sid’s line getting top matchups in 09

Even ignoring that, that’s like saying is Malkins 36 points that much more impressive than Logan coutures 30 in 2016?

 

[Grifter3511]

You do realize he could've just... said his point like a normal person (like you just did) instead of going out of his way to wildly exaggerate by a factor of at least a hundred. 'Half the league would have broken all my records' my ass, Gretz never said anything close to resembling that. And then he responds with an "I don't know what to say if you don't understand what I meant" get over yourself with 15,000 posts over almost 15 years you should've learned how to say what you actually mean by now. @BraveCanadian

***

Re: Hasek, beyond the incredible stats / awards (incl 6 Vezinas in 8 years, 5 Hart nominations / 2 wins etc), he was a unique talent. He played the game like no one else before or since, was better than everyone else while doing it, and he was the best goalie in the league for a good 8 or so years, shooters never figured him out despite their best efforts. Almost certainly would've racked up more trophies if he'd won the starters crease earlier than at 29 (the delay was through no fault of his own, the NHL had ever seen his style of play so how can you trust this random crazy Czech guy flopping around).

More specifically the other goalies that were in the convo at the time were Roy and Brodeur who both revolutionized the game. Goalies wouldn't be playing the puck as much without Brodeur or playing butterfly with Roy, but you can copy that stuff because it's easy to learn and reproduce.

With Hasek, how many goalies are spinning around doing snow angels in attempt to stop the puck? I can't think of a single one at the NHL level before or since, meaning you can't replicate what he did. AND he was the very best at his position for a long time AND he took care of his body / had a long career so despite starting late he was still able to stay good into his 40s (which is absurd for a goalie) AND he took terrible Buffalo teams deep runs multiple times AND that Olympic shootout before shootouts were a thing.

***

Anyway that's my reasoning. You can agree or not, that's fine. But to me I don't expect to ever see a goalie better than Hasek, so to me he belongs in that top tier alongside Gretz, Lemieux, Orr, Howe.

I think Gretz probably does belong in his own tier but if he himself confidently says "there's no question Lemieux would've broken all my records" I'm not going to doubt him. Yes Gretz praises lots of people but to my knowledge he hasn't said anything that strongly worded about anybody else, let alone "half the NHL" as that other poster claimed

Meh, you're wildly speculating on Crosby's effects on his teammates. I think it's fine for him to wildly speculate on what the Great One may or may not have said.

 

[PainForShane]

So, I kind of baited you into this reply. Not maliciously but to prove a point.

And I'm a huge fan of Hasek and agree with everything you said. You notice how you never even mentioned his two cups in 2002 as a starter and 2008 as a backup?

Its because they don't really change what he did in his prime, which is what his legacy is based on.

The same thing goes for McDavid. If he chases cups in his 30s playing for 1m a year with whatever contender he chooses, will that really elevate into a different tier?

The "hasn't won a cup" angle is wrong. We know its wrong. We don't have Matt Murray above Lundqvist, Price or Luongo. Why? Because he simply wasn't a better goalie than those 3.

Ultimately thats how McDavid and Crosby will be compared, not by the team accomplishments and the made up intangibles that people like to assign to "proven winners".

Fair enough. And yeah 100% agree Hasek legacy was based on his prime, to me the fact that he got a cup after his prime isn't as relevant, to the point I didn't even mention it. Of course he did get a cup as a starter in the end, and then another backing up Osgood (at 43 years old!) which is quite crazy, but I think we both agree that the other things mentioned in the prev message are more relevant.

That said there are two key differences in my mind between comparing Hasek cups vs Roy / Brodeur (or others) and McDavid cups compared to Crosby's, from a meta standpoint to me the analogies don't line up all that well.

1) Re: Hasek, to me I think he was significantly better than everyone else incl Roy / Brodeur / whoever else for a long time / basically a full generation. McDavid is an amazing player, but I don't think he's significantly better than everyone else in his generation, in fact if I were building a team I'd pick MacK first, and Matthews is a better goal scorer (at least in reg season). McDavid IS the best player right now, but I don't think it's by that much. I think Crosby was also the best player in his generation, but also I don't think by that much. So to me, their levels of dominance are about the same.

2) Given Crosby's intangibles ie consistently improving his teammates in a way that McDavid hasn't, I also think McDavid and Crosby are about the same level of player. Is McDavid more of a highlight reel and has more of what hockey ppl generally call 'skill'? Sure. But Sid's brain was a computer and no one could stop him either. So I think they're about the same level of player.

***

Anyway if they're about the same level of player who are showing about the same level of dominating the league, then it comes down to being clutch and winning. Sid did a lot of that, multiple cups and also Olympic Golden goal. McDavid hasn't yet.

All that to say to me the cup angle only matters if the players are basically the same tier. Matt Murray is not the same tier as Lundqvist, and I have Hasek in a tier all by himself ie higher than anyone else. But I have Crosby and McD in the same tier, so the fact that McD hasn't won yet is significant for me, especially when you compare him with Sid and all that Sid was able to bring.

***

We can disagree on this, what you're saying is reasonable too. But I do think if McDavid isn't able to lead his team to a cup in his prime (or close to it), that'll leave a pretty significant hole in his resume compared to the other greats of the game. For me, Hasek gets around that by dominating (ha) his generation as well as the other stuff, but I don't think McD has risen above his peers to the same degree. Combined that with lack of cup (at least so far) and I still have Sid ahead and Hasek well ahead

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Even ignoring that, that’s like saying is Malkins 36 points that much more impressive than Logan coutures 30 in 2016?

While Malkin had 6 less points, I brought up him having 6 more goals, in one less game.

Couture with 6 less points but also less goals in the same amount of games isn’t the same comparison.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Oh, you want to talk about context? This is the same poster that refutes Crosbys horrid play in the finals in ‘09 and claims people are “stat watching” rather than seeing the “true” value he brought?

Malkin took advantage of Sid’s line getting top matchups in 09

 

[67 others]

I watch McDavid play quite a lot actually. He plays a a very different game than Crosby so it's hard to compare. McDavid is amazing at processing his surroundings while stick handling and skating at full speed. But I think as far as quickly surveying the whole ice and finding the open man Crosby is a touch faster. Of course I'm sure you'll take this as a dig at McDavid when it's not, Crosby has probably the quickest play recognition I've ever seen. It's kind of his thing, especially as he's gotten older and prefers to carry the puck less. He doesn't have the puck skills McDavid has, his game has never been to stickhandle past defenders and create open space. He beats defenses more by moving the puck quickly. Kucherov is another player that specializes in this, although he plays a bit more deceptively than Crosby.

His game is completely to stick handle around defenders. They chase, and he cuts and turns on a dime. Crosby plays the "superstar grinder" game. His edgework is probably the best ever.

He doesn't create plays by blowing by defenders with speed in transition like McDavid, but Crosby's skating, edgework, Mohawks and control in the opposing zone is GOAT. Defenders chase and then lose him when he turns on a dime with full control, creating that space

 

[Frank Drebin]

While Malkin had 6 less points, I brought up him having 6 more goals, in one less game.

Couture with 6 less points but also less goals in the same amount of games isn’t the same comparison.

But really, is it *that* much more impressive?