Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Crow]

I guess I just feel Crosby has a wider talent base, whereas McDavid's is narrower, and one injury could easily derail his entire career, more so than Crosby, who maintained his excellence despite his injuries.

That’s a much better way to put it and an understandable position.

I feel like we can’t assume we know what kind of player McDavid will be when he inevitably loses his wheels. He still has incredible hands, vision, IQ. I could see him changing his game and still being successful.

 

[PainForShane]

Weird considering who he plays with, right?

Sid's 36 years old. And Pulju played 200 even strength minutes in Pitt with a grand total of... wait for it... 7:40 of ES minutes alongside Sid all of last year. This is the chart of Pulju's usage (which is easily found on NST):

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerreport.php?fromseason=20232024&thruseason=20232024&stype=2&sit=5v5&stdoi=oi&rate=n&v=t&playerid=8479344

But yeah, obviously Sid in 7 minutes and 40 seconds of shared ice time (at 36 years old) should be able to turn Pulju's entire career around, isn't that right? What a low effort post / argument you just made

 

[pth2]

That’s a much better way to put it and an understandable position.

I feel like we can’t assume we know what kind of player McDavid will be when he inevitably loses his wheels. He still has incredible hands, vision, IQ. I could see him changing his game and still being successful.

That's not saying much - he'd be succesful with a hand tied behind his back ! Extraordinary players just about always find a way. I would bet than 40 y.o. Crosby is better than 40 y.o. McDavid, though.

I guess we'll only be able to compare their careers when they're over and not when McDavid is less than halfway through his.

 

[Soundwave]

McDavid is a Gretzky/Lemieux tier talent IMO, he just plays in a better league. Crosby is up there too, but I think on talent McDavid is a little higher.

Howe/Orr no offense to those guys, but in the modern league they wouldn't be anywhere near as good, they played in a poor era. Just how sports develop and refine themselves over time.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I can't put McDavid on the Gretzky/Lemieux tier because in their primes they wouldn't lose the art ross to anyone. McDavid has lost to Draisaitl and Kucherov in his prime. Would never happen to Gretzky or Lemieux if they played even 60 games.

 

[Soundwave]

I can't put McDavid on the Gretzky/Lemieux tier because in their primes they wouldn't lose the art ross to anyone. McDavid has lost to Draisaitl and Kucherov in his prime. Would never happen to Gretzky or Lemieux if they played even 60 games.

In the modern NHL? It's possible, what happens in any sport is the pack rises to the cream of the crop, hockey development is so much better today and players all study each other from age 6/7 and the coaching/developer from young ages is so much more developed.

Kucherov would put up an incredible amount of points in the 80s or 90s, more than he does now.

Lets be honest too the only reason McDavid didn't win the Art Ross again this year is because he was playing with a bad abdominal tear for basically the entire year from game 4 onwards and could not get the same torque on his shot. You don't just randomly go from 64 goals down to 32 goals.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

In the modern NHL? It's possible, what happens in any sport is the pack rises to the cream of the crop, hockey development is so much better today and players all study each other from age 6/7 and the coaching/developer from young ages is so much more developed.

Kucherov would put up an incredible amount of points in the 80s or 90s, more than he does now.

Lemieux would never ever be outscored by Kucherov for an art ross. Let alone have two players outscore him in a full season.

 

[Soundwave]

Lemieux would never ever be outscored by Kucherov for an art ross. Let alone have two players outscore him in a full season.

With an abdominal tear all year, who knows maybe. Kucherov would score a lot more in the 80s/90s, the defenses and goalies are far better today.

It's like saying Wilt Chamberlain won scoring titles by 10 ppg+ per season, well yeah but he also (lets be honest) playing in a shittier league where the other players frankly just weren't as good as the time in which say Michel Jordan played in, even though Jordan never won a scoring title by that large of a margin.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

With an abdominal tear all year, who knows maybe. Kucherov would score a lot more in the 80s/90s, the defenses and goalies are far better today.

Lemieux played with a bad back for about half his career. Still won art rosses handily in seasons he played.

Kucherov or MacKinnon are not Gretzky/Lemieux level. And you need to be at that level to outscore either. McDavid probably headlines the next tier, but he's not in the Gretzky/Lemieux tier. Not a chance.

 

[Soundwave]

Lemieux played with a bad back for about half his career. Still won art rosses handily in seasons he played.

Kucherov or MacKinnon are not Gretzky/Lemieux level. And you need to be at that level to outscore either. McDavid probably headlines the next tier, but he's not in the Gretzky/Lemieux tier. Not a chance.

In terms of raw talent I think he is. He would score similar numbers to those guys against that lower level of 80s/90s comp (sorry but it just is, 80s/90s goaltending is closer to AHL tier, there might be even ECHL guys better than some 80s goalies).

You're just not going to have the same player separation when player development is so much better today and there's so much more (millions of dollars) at stake that anyone with any kind of reasonable talent at a young age gets put in very advanced training.

That happens in just about any sport as it develops, you can look at the NBA and see the same kind of pattern, Wilt Chamberlain absolutely dummied the league in the 1960s, averaged 50 points a game in a season, no one has even hit 40 points a game per season since. But he was like one of only two 7 footers in the entire league, that doesn't make him better than Michael Jordan or LeBron James.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I don't buy it that McDavid is all that close to the big four. They all had better hockey IQ. Lemieux had it all but couldn't stay healthy.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

In terms of raw talent I think he is. He would score similar numbers to those guys against that lower level of 80s/90s comp (sorry but it just is, 80s/90s goaltending is closer to AHL tier, there might be even ECHL guys better than some 80s goalies).

That's more of an indictment against Gretzky than Lemieux. The mid 90s and early 2000s goaltending was elite yet Lemieux still dominated.

 

[Soundwave]

That's more of an indictment against Gretzky than Lemieux. The mid 90s and early 2000s goaltending was elite yet Lemieux still dominated.

Elite ... eh ... yeah I dunno. There were still a lot of bad goalies and coke machine D in that time that probably wouldn't even make the league today. If you put McDavid into the mid-90s even he would destroy that league, lets be honest.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Elite ... eh ... yeah I dunno. If you put McDavid into the mid-90s even he would destroy that league, lets be honest.

Maybe so, but not at Lemieux's level. 161 points in 70 games at age 30? Kucherov or MacKinnon would never outscore Lemieux. That's the main reason I can't put McDavid in that tier.

 

[Soundwave]

Maybe so, but not at Lemieux's level. 161 points in 70 games at age 30? Kucherov or MacKinnon would never outscore Lemieux. That's the main reason I can't put McDavid in that tier.

By the same token, McDavid scored at a comparable rate to Lemieux in the playoffs this year with a bad core injury that basically took away his ability to shoot properly ... against modern day D and goaltending and coaching, which IMO is far better winning a Conn Smythe in a losing effort.

That is some Gretzky/Lemieux tier craziness.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Lemieux played with a bad back for about half his career. Still won art rosses handily in seasons he played.

Kucherov or MacKinnon are not Gretzky/Lemieux level. And you need to be at that level to outscore either. McDavid probably headlines the next tier, but he's not in the Gretzky/Lemieux tier. Not a chance.

There is no Gretzky / Lemieux tier -as much as pens fans would like to pretend there is.

 

[PainForShane]

By the same token, McDavid scored at a comparable rate to Lemieux in the playoffs this year with a bad core injury that basically took away his ability to shoot properly ... against modern day D and goaltending and coaching, which IMO is far better winning a Conn Smythe in a losing effort.

That is some Gretzky/Lemieux tier craziness.

Lemieux is a cancer survivor with a bad back who couldn't even sit down during flights for a significant chunk of his career.

What McDavid is doing and what Crosby have done are not the same. You may think it's the same (and I realize I am most likely not going to change your opinion and am ok with that), but it's not the same. In my opinion, it's not even close to the same.

 

[Soundwave]

Lemieux is a cancer survivor with a bad back who couldn't even sit down during flights for a significant chunk of his career.

What McDavid is doing and what Crosby have done are not the same. You may think it's the same (and I realize I am most likely not going to change your opinion and am ok with that), but it's not the same. In my opinion, it's not even close to the same.

I mean McDavid literally had prime Lemiuex/Gretzky like numbers in PPG this playoffs despite also having the 2nd lowest goals per game of his career because he could barely get anything on his shot release all year long due to injury.

Considering this is 2024 and not 1991 or 1988 ... that is f***ing insane for any player to do that.

I don't think Crosby or any modern player would be able to do that, I'm not even sure Mario or Wayne could score at that same rate against this level D + coaching + goaltending (superior to the past).

Talent wise McDavid is simply is a freak of nature.

 

[PainForShane]

There is no Gretzky / Lemieux tier -as much as pens fans would like to pretend there is.

Gretzky himself said that in his opinion, Lemieux if healthy would've broken all of his records.



Pretty sure Gretz knows more about hockey than all of us put together (by quite a lot)

 

[PainForShane]

I mean McDavid literally had prime Lemiuex/Gretzky like numbers in PPG this playoffs despite also having the 2nd lowest goals per game of his career because he could barely get anything on his shot release all year long due to injury.

Considering this is 2024 and not 1991 or 1988 ... that is f***ing insane for any player to do that.

I don't think Crosby or any modern player would be able to do that, I'm not even sure Mario or Wayne could score at that same rate against this level D + coaching + goaltending (superior to the past).

Talent wise McDavid is simply is a freak of nature.

And how f***ing insane is it do that when you're a cancer survivor and your back is so messed up you can't even sit down for an extended period of time? Keep in mind Lemieux consistently dummied people the same way McDavid does and had objectively much worse health issues, it's not even close. And then keep in mind Wayne is Wayne which is not something anyone should have to remind anyone on a hockey board.

And now you're saying you think McD is actually the same level as Wayne or Mario because quality of competition is higher today than it was back then.

Idk man. To me, you're talking a level of nonsense that I didn't think I'd see on a hockey board

 

[Soundwave]

And how f***ing insane is it do that when you're a cancer survivor and your back is so messed up you can't even sit down for an extended period of time? Keep in mind Lemieux consistently dummied people the same way McDavid does and had objectively much worse health issues, it's not even close. And then keep in mind Wayne is Wayne which is not something anyone should have to remind anyone on a hockey board.

And now you're saying you think McD is actually the same level as Wayne or Mario because quality of competition is higher today than it was back then.

Idk man. To me, you're talking a level of nonsense that I didn't think I'd ever see in a hockey board

I could be wrong, but I don't think Mario had cancer in 1991 or 1992, for any player to put up numbers comparable to Gretzky/Lemieux from what they were doing in the early 90s to today is insane.

To do that while your shot release is basically halving your goal scoring is totally bonkers.

There's no one else that could do that IMO. Not Sid or Ovy. I don't even know if you put 1991 Mario or Wayne into the sport today if they could match their own numbers.

The league is a lot better today, the average forward/D/goalie/coach are all better than the average player from 30 years ago.

 

[tabness]

I could be wrong, but I don't think Mario had cancer in 1991 or 1992, for any player to put up numbers comparable to Gretzky/Lemieux from what they were doing in the early 90s to today is insane.

To do that while your shot release is basically halving your goal scoring is totally bonkers.

There's no one else that could do that IMO. Not Sid or Ovy. I don't even know if you put 1991 Mario or Wayne into the sport today if they could match their own numbers.

The league is a lot better today, the average forward/D/goalie/coach are all better than the average player from 30 years ago.

The league is also far softer today and has rules tailored for offense which artificially increases player's skill exhibition.

Tons of players have played with injuries throughout their careers by the way, scored 100+ points doing so as well.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Gretzky himself said that in his opinion, Lemieux if healthy would've broken all of his records.

Pretty sure Gretz knows more about hockey than all of us put together (by quite a lot)

He said the same thing about half the NHL, though.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Out of curiosity (and I mean this sincerely), for you is McDavid still Tier 1 if he doesn't win at least one championship? For me that's what keeps him below the very, very best (which for me includes Hasek). Just trying to understand where you're coming from thanks!

Why do you have Hasek in the all time greats?

 

[Soundwave]

The league is also far softer today and has rules tailored for offense which artificially increases player's skill exhibition.

Tons of players have played with injuries throughout their careers by the way, scored 100+ points doing so as well.

There's not any players that put up the scoring rate McDavid just did in the playoffs other than Wayne and Mario, and I don't think Wayne and Mario could even do it today against today's D and goalies.

The fact that on top of that, this was not really a "everything is going right for McDavid!" kind of year because an injury basically crippled his ability to properly shoot the puck, his goal scoring rate this past year and even playoffs was the 2nd worst of his career.

Imagine what he could have done if he could actually shoot the damn puck, lol (64 goals last year down to 32 this year, only 8 goals in the playoffs, he had 8 goals through 2 rounds last year).

IMO that shows he is a Gretzky/Lemieux tier talent. I don't think anyone else since Wayne or Mario could do what he just did this past April/May/June, again I'm not even sure Wayne or Mario could do it in the modern league.

This guy's a remarkable talent.