Would You Guarantee Dubas' Job For 2022-23 If It Meant Holding On To Our Futures?

[DarkKnight]

The Leafs have learned the hard way hockey isn’t math. This sport isn’t baseball.

I fire him now, this team desperately needs a reset, particularly culture wise and he’s the architect.

 

[4thline]

The Leafs learned the hard way hockey isn’t math. This sport isn’t baseball.

I fire him now, this team desperately needs a reset, particularly culture wise and he’s the architect.

I think you wait a year to really see what you have in Matthews and Marner, and if it doesn't go well that reset goes a lot deeper than GM.

 

[Stephen]

I think Lou wanted to keep going as GM after the 3 years. However, he also signed a contract that saw him be GM for 3 years, and then become an advisor for 3 years. So it certainly seemed like Shanahan had his plan in mind when hiring Lou.

I think they definitely didn’t plan on having him around as GM forever given his age at the time. But it’s clear they felt like they had to give the job to Dubas after he made moves to take the Colorado job the year previous and the Leafs didn’t want to get caught on the back foot with a GM in his late 70s who might alienate the young core.

 

[DarkKnight]

I think you wait a year to really see what you have in Matthews and Marner, and if it doesn't go well that reset goes a lot deeper than GM.

I’m just not on board with keeping the GM, keeping the coach and keeping the core for another year. Something has to give.

 

[4thline]

I think they definitely didn’t plan on having him around as GM forever given his age at the time. But it’s clear they felt like they had to give the job to Dubas after he made moves to take the Colorado job the year previous and the Leafs didn’t want to get caught on the back foot with a GM in his late 70s who might alienate the young core.

The biggest point of divergence IMO. Shanny wanted to bet on them at all costs, LouLam didn't.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Why did everyone leave in such a hurry after the hire?

Lou was offered a GM job. Hunter was mutually terminated, after doing a pretty bad job. That's not "everybody leaving in a hurry", and not sure what any of this has to do with your false claim about a "power grab".

 

[hotpaws]

I think you wait a year to really see what you have in Matthews and Marner, and if it doesn't go well that reset goes a lot deeper than GM.

yup , just kicking the can down the road because the main point is to blame everyone but Dubas

 

[4thline]

I’m just not on board with keeping the GM, keeping the coach and keeping the core for another year. Something has to give.

When our downfall this season (and last) was the inability of 2 players to deliver relative to their abilities, you make the change the counts not just change for change.

We're not having this discussion if M&M don't shoot 1.8% and deliver one combined goal. If they deliver the series is done in 5.

The only rational reason to fire him *now* is if you've lost faith in M&M and want to move on and he hasn't.

 

[4thline]

yup , just kicking the can down the road because the main point is to blame everyone but Dubas

I mean, the players playing play pretty important role in deciding sports yes? Our best did not deliver. That's why we lost.

If they can't deliver, the next GM deserves a clean slate.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So you must have a concrete reason to know certain prospects will work out.

You don't have to know the future to evaluate prospects on more than blind hope.

 

[Bomber0104]

yup , just kicking the can down the road because the main point is to blame everyone but Dubas

Ah yes, the old "Smoked Meat Pete" Brian Burke defence tactic:

"Patience!"

 

[DarkKnight]

When our downfall this season (and last) was the inability of 2 players to deliver relative to their abilities, you make the change the counts not just change for change.

We're not having this discussion if M&M don't shoot 1.8% and deliver one combined goal. If they deliver the series is done in 5.

The only rational reason to fire him *now* is if you've lost faith in M&M and want to move on and he hasn't.

I hear you, although I think it’s a little more complicated than that.

 

[Dreakmur]

He is doing well.

It certainly isn't terrible. He's done some good things, but he's also done some bad things.

Overall, he's probably been slightly better than average.

Makes logical, reasoned moves, and we're a much better team now than when he took over.

We look better on paper, that's for sure. I find it hard to separate how much of an impact Keefe had. He's clearly a terrible coach, but I'm not sure how impactful the other underlying problems are.

There's way, way more to evaluating a GM than "how many rounds your team win, bro?".

When you're a team that's supposed to be in their window, winning rounds is a big deal.

I'm not sure how anybody could conclude that Dubas is the reason we lost to Montreal anyway.

He has to be at least part of the reason.

Coaching? He hired the coach.
Lack of depth? His cap mismanagement led to that.
Top guys didn't deliver? He committed the half the cap to them.

 

[Cor]

I think they definitely didn’t plan on having him around as GM forever given his age at the time. But it’s clear they felt like they had to give the job to Dubas after he made moves to take the Colorado job the year previous and the Leafs didn’t want to get caught on the back foot with a GM in his late 70s who might alienate the young core.

That could have certainly played a factor, you're right. Perhaps that is also why Hunter felt he had to make his ultimatum to Shanahan, to compete with that factor.

 

[Dreakmur]

You don't have to know the future to evaluate prospects on more than blind hope.

You don't have to live up to you handle every time somebody asks a question you can't answer. If you don't know, it's ok to admit it

 

[Stephen]

Lou was offered a GM job. Hunter was mutually terminated, after doing a pretty bad job. That's not "everybody leaving in a hurry", and not sure what any of this has to do with your false claim about a "power grab".

Regime changes usually entail wholesale personnel changes. If it was a continuous plan that had been implemented in 2014 everyone would have just shuffled around and continued doing the job.

Even Dubas fans have framed this change as a clean break from the Lou and Hunter era. Trying to walk that back now seems curious.

 

[Aus34Matt]

Lou was offered a GM job. Hunter was mutually terminated, after doing a pretty bad job. That's not "everybody leaving in a hurry", and not sure what any of this has to do with your false claim about a "power grab".

In your fantasy island, that's how things went down. There was definitely bitter break ups.

You bought the optics MLSE tried to sell you.

 

[Stephen]

You don't have to know the future to evaluate prospects on more than blind hope.

Prospects who haven’t been promoted or busted yet tend to look better on an org chart. It’s called the “counting your chickens before they hatch method.”

 

[Stephen]

In your fantasy island, that's how things went down. There was definitely bitter break ups.

You bought the optics MLSE tried to sell you.

Dubas fans have often characterized this era as a clean break and upgrade from the dark days of Uncle Lou and Mark Hunter. You can’t have an abrupt change like that without having toes stepped on.

 

[hotpaws]

I mean, the players playing play pretty important role in deciding sports yes? Our best did not deliver. That's why we lost.

If they can't deliver, the next GM deserves a clean slate.

this isn't b-ball where you get 2-3 stars , add depth pieces around them and win a title

this teams problems stem from the GM blowing the shit out of the cap which left him only enough money to fill the roster with scraps off the trash heap and washed up vets

Dubas will be leaving the new GM a shit show , brutal cap situation and huge money with term left on regressing players in JT/Muzzin as well as a ticking clock on AM's deal .

but i guess for you the Dubas train ride into the toilet was fun while it lasted

 

[Swervin81]

I give him one more season, maybe two with the condition that he has to move a core piece if they fail again this coming season. Dubas does have serious strikes against him (RFA contracts, not addressing the backup goalie issue properly for a year and a half), but he also has some big pluses - he actually made moves to improve our D and added two bonafide top 4 d-man - our D has gone from shit to solid under his watch. This current regime's picks outside of round 1 also look more promising than any of the Mark Hunter fridges that all pretty much busted.

That said, the RFA contracts are a huge strike just because it's backed him into a corner. Sure, he kinda got screwed by the pandemic and flat cap, and maybe this could've worked in a normal world, but he hasn't adjusted to the new reality - that stubborness can be blamed on him. And Keefe has looked overmatched in two straight playoffs now, and you generally don't get to fire a second coach that quickly (barring some Bill Peters like scandal).

 

[hotpaws]

Ah yes, the old "Smoked Meat Pete" Brian Burke defence tactic:

"Patience!"

yup all Burkie needed was the never ending one more year , lol

i wonder what user name our old friend Pete is posting under

 

[4thline]

this isn't b-ball where you get 2-3 stars , add depth pieces around them and win a title

We went 7 games with a team sitting tied in the final 4 with one goal from our 3 stars. Lack of depth was not the down fall of the 2021 Leafs. Stars not playing like stars/being hurt was.

If they can't deliver both they and the GM that bet on them and refused to budge should be gone.

 

[tmlms13]

If you fire him now here are the 3 options .

1. Hire an internal GM, and that isn't any better.

2. Hire an external GM and in their first 5 weeks there is the Expansion Draft, Entry Draft, UFA/RFA. Just asking for a disaster. That's assuming you can hire one the same day you fire Dubas.

3. Do the three events in #2 without a GM

Those are all terrible ideas. Dubas has only been GM for 3 years. He's only had 1 season with 82 games FFS. It's really unfair to get rid of him that quick, it looks bad on the organization if a GM lifespan is 3 years.

Hell Brian Burke had 5 years, never made the playoffs, and traded 2 firsts for Kessel

 

[hotpaws]

We went 7 games with a team sitting tied in the final 4 with one goal from our 3 stars. Lack of depth was not the down fall of the 2021 Leafs. Stars not playing like stars/being hurt was.

and last year against another weak team it was something else

but you keep having your internet fun because i doubt anyone on the Leafs BOD is anywhere as thrilled as you are with the Dubes performance so far

and judging by the way Dubie looked in his year end presser he isn't anywhere near as confident in his job security as you seem to be , he looked like a dead man walking to me and he's probably still dancing to save his job as we speak