Player Discussion Brady Tkachuk (LW) - Part XI

[frightenedinmatenum2]

I am worried about Brady's feelings.

 

[PlayOn]

 

[BankStreetParade]

You don’t fire people from leadership roles when their role isn’t linked to the success or failure outcome you’re examining. It’s not the captains fault it took 7 years for this team to have 4 legit top 4 defensemen. It’s not the captain's fault this team can’t figure out the goaltending position.

You strip the captain of their leadership role when the room is divided and conflict filled. From all sources, that’s not at all the case in Ottawa.

You dont strip the captain for not making the playoffs when the team (GM’s job) wasn’t nearly playoff quality.

What you’re suggesting is not accountability, it’s scapegoating.

Nope, not the only reasons you take away the captaincy or give it to someone else.

Look at Tavares...look at Thornton...there's been several high profile players to lose the C and some who even stayed on with their teams.

I mean cut me a break with that first paragraph. This guy's performance as a captain should only be viewed through the prism of the quality of the team around him? Like he's some helpless bystander or victim of circumstances beyond his control? It's honestly baffling, after 4 years of him as captain, that he's somehow completely beyond reproach. Nothing he does or doesn't do matters. All you know is that it's not his fault. It's everyone else's fault but certainly nothing to do with him.

It's such a bizarre line some of you are drawing. Many many years of no playoffs, some of them with him as the captain, and it's somehow completely out of the question to ask if he's the right guy for the role.

 

[thinkwild]

It seems so disconnected from the obvious though to question whether the most obvious captain who is coming into his own and being praised around the league as a great captain should be captain. Sounds more like pouting

 

[Norris4Norris]

I personally like Tkachuk, not to be too anti-establishment.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

I personally like Tkachuk, not to be too anti-establishment.

The Tkachuk's are the establishment!

 

[Bileur]

Nope, not the only reasons you take away the captaincy or give it to someone else.

Look at Tavares...look at Thornton...there's been several high profile players to lose the C and some who even stayed on with their teams.

I mean cut me a break with that first paragraph. This guy's performance as a captain should only be viewed through the prism of the quality of the team around him? Like he's some helpless bystander or victim of circumstances beyond his control? It's honestly baffling, after 4 years of him as captain, that he's somehow completely beyond reproach. Nothing he does or doesn't do matters. All you know is that it's not his fault. It's everyone else's fault but certainly nothing to do with him.

It's such a bizarre line some of you are drawing. Many many years of no playoffs, some of them with him as the captain, and it's somehow completely out of the question to ask if he's the right guy for the role.

You’re advocating to replace a working engine on a car that didn’t drive but the reason it didn’t drive was because it didn’t have wheels.

Could the engine have performed better? Maybe? Hard to tell without wheels.

It’s fine to consider replacing the engine if it starts to fail but let’s see if it can run with wheels on first.

Thornton and Tavares were on stacked teams where success was expected. That’s the point. Their cars had all the bells and whistles (and wheels) and still wouldn’t drive. Terrible comparison.

 

[umma gumma]

Nope, not the only reasons you take away the captaincy or give it to someone else.

Look at Tavares...look at Thornton...there's been several high profile players to lose the C and some who even stayed on with their teams.

I mean cut me a break with that first paragraph. This guy's performance as a captain should only be viewed through the prism of the quality of the team around him? Like he's some helpless bystander or victim of circumstances beyond his control? It's honestly baffling, after 4 years of him as captain, that he's somehow completely beyond reproach. Nothing he does or doesn't do matters. All you know is that it's not his fault. It's everyone else's fault but certainly nothing to do with him.

It's such a bizarre line some of you are drawing. Many many years of no playoffs, some of them with him as the captain, and it's somehow completely out of the question to ask if he's the right guy for the role.

You know you're right. Brady could have been a better goalie these last 4 years.

If someone else other than Brady was wearing the C, I bet we don't trade for Debrincat and Chychrun.

With someone else wearing the C, maybe we draft Sillinger and don't have to forfeit a 1st round pick on top of that.

Man its so obvious now.

Shit, we probably would have had a Bank street parade by now with a different captain.

 

[BankStreetParade]

You know you're right. Brady could have been a better goalie these last 4 years.

If someone else other than Brady was wearing the C, I bet we don't trade for Debrincat and Chychrun.

With someone else wearing the C, maybe we draft Sillinger and don't have to forfeit a 1st round pick on top of that.

Man its so obvious now.

Shit, we probably would have had a Bank street parade by now with a different captain.

A whole post of false equivalencies! Oh boy, what a treat!

 

[Micklebot]

Nope, not the only reasons you take away the captaincy or give it to someone else.

Look at Tavares...look at Thornton...there's been several high profile players to lose the C and some who even stayed on with their teams.

I mean cut me a break with that first paragraph. This guy's performance as a captain should only be viewed through the prism of the quality of the team around him? Like he's some helpless bystander or victim of circumstances beyond his control? It's honestly baffling, after 4 years of him as captain, that he's somehow completely beyond reproach. Nothing he does or doesn't do matters. All you know is that it's not his fault. It's everyone else's fault but certainly nothing to do with him.

It's such a bizarre line some of you are drawing. Many many years of no playoffs, some of them with him as the captain, and it's somehow completely out of the question to ask if he's the right guy for the role.

There's a big difference between striping an aging vet of the captaincy to pass it on to the next generation and striping a 25 yr old captain you named at 21 with the understanding that both he and the team were going to grow.

I'm really not sure how striping Tkachuk of the captaincy could be viewed as anything other than scapegoating, we don't really have a clearly better heir apparent, he isn't aging out like 40 yr old Thornton, the reality is for the most part the team has performed close to expectations during his time as captain.

 

[BankStreetParade]

You’re advocating to replace a working engine on a car that didn’t drive but the reason it didn’t drive was because it didn’t have wheels.

Could the engine have performed better? Maybe? Hard to tell without wheels.

It’s fine to consider replacing the engine if it starts to fail but let’s see if it can run with wheels on first.

Thornton and Tavares were on stacked teams where success was expected. That’s the point. Their cars had all the bells and whistles (and wheels) and still wouldn’t drive. Terrible comparison.

The gist of what you're saying, once again, is that he's faultless and just a victim of bad circumstances. If that's your definition of a captain, then why do teams even give out the C? If he's a guy who only delivers leadership for the team when things are going well or he has a great roster surrounding him, then he's not much of a captain, is he?

And you were so so so close to making the realization on Thornton and Tavares. Every team has different expectations and if you don't meet those expectations, relative to what your organization believes they are, then it's perfectly fine to consider changing the leadership of your organization. The Leafs fell short of their expectations and they fired the HC and stripped the captain of his C.

I mean you're a fan of a team that one time thought about trading their captain because they were constantly falling short of the expectations they had set. The conversation was had and that team had a lot more relative success than this current iteration has. The idea that it's so out of bounds to even have the conversation now is beyond comprehension. Nothing should be off the table until this team is in a position where making the playoffs consistently is achieved. Then we can start discussing the next tranche of expectations and whether the leadership elements of the team are failing to meet those objectives.

 

[BankStreetParade]

There's a big difference between striping an aging vet of the captaincy to pass it on to the next generation and striping a 25 yr old captain you named at 21 with the understanding that both he and the team were going to grow.

I'm really not sure how striping Tkachuk of the captaincy could be viewed as anything other than scapegoating, we don't really have a clearly better heir apparent, he isn't aging out like 40 yr old Thornton, the reality is for the most part the team has performed close to expectations during his time as captain.

Thornton was 35 when they stripped him of the captaincy and he played another 500+ games after that. You're making him sound like he was imminently wheelchair bound or something.

Anyway, if this team has performed close to expectations during his time as captain how can you reconcile that against the backlash of the fanbase against the results they've seen over the last 3 seasons. And, again, this presumes that we miss the playoffs this year. It's still up in the air but if we miss the playoffs again this year it's pretty crazy to me that we can't even have the conversation about whether this guy is the right captain for this team or not. Like it's completely off the table. That's just a strange position for some fans to take after so many years of failure.

 

[umma gumma]

A whole post of false equivalencies! Oh boy, what a treat!

Oh really?

It's honestly baffling, after 4 years of him as captain, that he's somehow completely beyond reproach. Nothing he does or doesn't do matters. All you know is that it's not his fault. It's everyone else's fault but certainly nothing to do with him.

You think him wearing the C has had a bigger impact on the results of the last four years over the 'false equivalencies' I posted?

Sure.

Thornton was 35 when they stripped him of the captaincy and he played another 500+ games after that. You're making him sound like he was imminently wheelchair bound or something.

Anyway, if this team has performed close to expectations during his time as captain how can you reconcile that against the backlash of the fanbase against the results they've seen over the last 3 seasons. And, again, this presumes that we miss the playoffs this year. It's still up in the air but if we miss the playoffs again this year it's pretty crazy to me that we can't even have the conversation about whether this guy is the right captain for this team or not. Like it's completely off the table. That's just a strange position for some fans to take after so many years of failure.

How does naming another captain improve our team depth? Does someone else wearing the C suddenly make Norris and Pinto durable? Hamonic a top 4 D?

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Thornton was 35 when they stripped him of the captaincy and he played another 500+ games after that. You're making him sound like he was imminently wheelchair bound or something.

Anyway, if this team has performed close to expectations during his time as captain how can you reconcile that against the backlash of the fanbase against the results they've seen over the last 3 seasons. And, again, this presumes that we miss the playoffs this year. It's still up in the air but if we miss the playoffs again this year it's pretty crazy to me that we can't even have the conversation about whether this guy is the right captain for this team or not. Like it's completely off the table. That's just a strange position for some fans to take after so many years of failure.

Expectations that were manifested from an extremely flawed upper management group.

Its like being a terrible chef that orders the cheapest ingredients and tools and hiring incompetent employees and expecting your business to have good reviews at your restaurant.

 

[Bileur]

Expectations that were manifested from an extremely flawed upper management group.

Its like being a terrible chef that orders the cheapest ingredients and tools and hiring incompetent employees and expecting your business to have good reviews at your restaurant.

And then demoting your Maître d’hôtel to busboy because the food sucked.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Oh really?


You think him wearing the C has had a bigger impact on the results of the last four years over the 'false equivalencies' I posted?

Sure.


How does naming another captain improve our team depth? Does someone else wearing the C suddenly make Norris and Pinto durable? Hamonic a top 4 D?

Replace the crossed out word with head coach and read the same questions again. We fired DJ because the roster was terrible? Because Norris and Pinto weren't durable? Because Hamonic was in the lineup? Because he had terrible goaltending?

 

[BankStreetParade]

Expectations that were manifested from an extremely flawed upper management group.

So we shouldn't have had expectations to compete for the playoffs? Cause I'm not entirely sure what other expectations we're talking about.

Its like being a terrible chef that orders the cheapest ingredients and tools and hiring incompetent employees and expecting your business to have good reviews at your restaurant.

And again with the bizarre comparisons. First cars now terrible chefs?

This team is on its third season of spending to the upper limit. This year we have Tkachuk, Stutzle, Sanderson, Chabot, Norris, Batherson, Ullmark, Zub, Giroux, Pinto, Jensen...11 quality guys out of 20 who play on any given night. Approx. $88.2M allocated to the cap. In previous seasons we've had Chychrun, DeBrincat, Tarasenko...

We're currently on track to finish about 2-3 points ahead of where we did 2 seasons ago. Look at that lineup, head coach, GM and tell me if it compares favorably to the current iteration. You know, instead of comparing it to nonsense like chefs and ingredients.

 

[bicboi64]

Anyway, if this team has performed close to expectations during his time as captain how can you reconcile that against the backlash of the fanbase against the results they've seen over the last 3 seasons. And, again, this presumes that we miss the playoffs this year. It's still up in the air but if we miss the playoffs again this year it's pretty crazy to me that we can't even have the conversation about whether this guy is the right captain for this team or not. Like it's completely off the table. That's just a strange position for some fans to take after so many years of failure.

I feel stripping the C from Tkachuk would indicate management is fine to move on with their path, even if it means Brady isn't part of the long term fans. Some people felt this guy would be a future captain the minute he was drafted and the expectations put on him have been next level. Tkachuk is a popular captain as his personality and style of play appeals to a lot of people (despite his on ice play and leadership ability), so naturally any discussion that indicates he won't be a part of the solution will be met with loads of negativity. Plus its rare to have a power forward who can hit and score like Tkachuk so the idea of another team having him can be irritating.

Personally, I'm against stripping the C because I don't think Tkachuk will handle it in a way that helps the team. It'll cause locker room issues to a team that is already mentally weak, and is more likely to push him to wanting out. I'm fine to move Tkachuk, but not after a nasty fallout (don't want his trade value getting any lower). I was against giving him the C, but he's the C we have now and we either ride with him as a bubble team or have to move forward without him because taking the C is just going to force him out.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

So we shouldn't have had expectations to compete for the playoffs? Cause I'm not entirely sure what other expectations we're talking about.

And again with the bizarre comparisons. First cars now terrible chefs?

This team is on its third season of spending to the upper limit. This year we have Tkachuk, Stutzle, Sanderson, Chabot, Norris, Batherson, Ullmark, Zub, Giroux, Pinto, Jensen...11 quality guys out of 20 who play on any given night. Approx. $88.2M allocated to the cap. In previous seasons we've had Chychrun, DeBrincat, Tarasenko...

We're currently on track to finish about 2-3 points ahead of where we did 2 seasons ago. Look at that lineup, head coach, GM and tell me if it compares favorably to the current iteration. You know, instead of comparing it to nonsense like chefs and ingredients.

What's nonsense is laying the blame solely on the captain of the team and stripping him of a letter without looking at it with context.

Just because you spend to the cap doesn't mean the dollars were allocated smartly.

If you strip Brady of the C you may as well trade him at that point. You don't spend his entire career making him the face of your franchise to strip it away because of previous failures that manifested from an incompetent and probably one of if not the worst management groups in the NHL.

 

[Micklebot]

Replace the crossed out word with head coach and read the same questions again. We fired DJ because the roster was terrible? Because Norris and Pinto weren't durable? Because Hamonic was in the lineup? Because he had terrible goaltending?

I'd agree that DJ got scapegoated for the teams lack of success when much of it was out of his hands. So is change for the sake of change is your answer? Does that mean we should now scapegoat Tkachuk? Seems like a bad argument to me... and that's ignoring the reality that coaches are hired to be fired.

This whole conversation about striping Brady of the captaincy has Alfredsson for Conroy vibes.

 

[umma gumma]

Replace the crossed out word with head coach and read the same questions again. We fired DJ because the roster was terrible? Because Norris and Pinto weren't durable? Because Hamonic was in the lineup? Because he had terrible goaltending?

Why are you ignoring Dorion's hand in this mess? Neither DJ or Dorion should have been given the positions they held, and we're still feeling the effects of it. Blaming it on who's wearing a letter is silly. Swapping out the C changes nothing. If anything, it'll make things worse.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I'll take obtuse arguments for 1000 Alex

 

[HSF]

I knew this would get some backlash but the truth is, a guy like Sanderson makes a ton more sense for that kind of role. He plays a shitload of minutes, he's on the ice for virtually every scenario, he plays against the best players on every team, he plays extremely hard and fair and he has the kind of lead-by-example quality that makes him in the mold of an Alfredsson, who was the best style of captain in this team's history. And I'm not saying Sanderson is the only alternative, just giving what I think is a good example.

Maybe it's the kind of step that could help Brady refocus his energy and commitment. No need to worry about being a captain and all the duties that entails, just play hockey in the way everyone knows he's capable of.

Found Sanderson's burner account

 

[BankStreetParade]

What's nonsense is laying the blame solely on the captain of the team and stripping him of a letter without looking at it with context.

Just because you spend to the cap doesn't mean the dollars were allocated smartly.

If you strip Brady of the C you may as well trade him at that point. You don't spend his entire career making him the face of your franchise to strip it away because of previous failures that manifested from an incompetent and probably one of if not the worst management groups in the NHL.

Well we have a new GM and a new HC + coaching staff so I can't make a realistic argument for replacing them in such a short time. That leaves the third pillar of leadership on the team, the captain. You wanna make the argument that one of those other 2 positions should be changed if we don't make the playoffs, instead of changing Cs, that's fine. I just don't see it being realistic.

The final option is we change nothing. We keep the same GM, HC and Captain after missing the playoffs again and hope for the best next season. Not fine with me but seems to be what you're saying is the best course of action.

Why are you ignoring Dorion's hand in this mess? Neither DJ or Dorion should have been given the positions they held, and we're still feeling the effects of it. Blaming it on who's wearing a letter is silly. Swapping out the C changes nothing. If anything, it'll make things worse.

Yeah I'm not taking the bait. You guys feel free to bring up Dorion endlessly, you seem to be obsessed with the guy or something.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I'd agree that DJ got scapegoated for the teams lack of success when much of it was out of his hands. So is change for the sake of change is your answer? Does that mean we should now scapegoat Tkachuk? Seems like a bad argument to me... and that's ignoring the reality that coaches are hired to be fired.

I'm saying to the people who make convenient arguments that it can't be both ways. You can't say DJ was a terrible coach (and all the other dogpiling that was done, no need to rehash it now) and also say Tkachuk is just some innocent bystander in all this who has no control over the situation. Either they're both getting scapegoated or they're both partially responsible, in their own ways, for the failures of the team. I don't see a clear delineation to say one guy gets the benefit of the doubt and the other guy is constantly shit on.

This whole conversation about striping Brady of the captaincy has Alfredsson for Conroy vibes.

At least there would be some kind of conversation about it. And the idea of a terrible trade doesn't change the fact that there was some conversation about whether Alfredsson was the right leader, when the team consistently under-delivered on expectations. It wouldn't have been seen as treasonous to even suggest the idea, eventhough he and the team were far far far more accomplished as a player/organization than Brady is today.