Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 77

[Benstheman]

Yes, I would; but I don't think NJ bites.

Yeah that's not what they want anyway.

 

[Benstheman]

Guys, the point isn't that I want Kevin Fiala. It is that Kevin Fiala is available and if the Habs wish to compete in 2 years they need to on-board assets who can contribute in 1 year at the earliest. If not Kevin Fiala then someone else, but to complete a REBUILD the Habs need to BUILD (add talent).

The ultra-conservative approach is what Bergevin did when he never acquired talent and still failed to develop talent, it flat out failed. We cannot expect the Habs to suddenly become talent development maestros, it's too much of a change from their outcomes so far... so that means we should still look at trading draft picks and prospects for developed players...


Minny think he's a core piece, they cannot afford him. It isn't a Bergevin move to acquire a 80 point player because outside of 20 games of Vanek he never did in ten years. A Bergevin move would be to poo-poo an easily acquirable top player because he preferred to draft the next Ryan Poehling.


Bergevin would never trade a first or trade for a first. He wouldn't add talent, he would swap talent. He would "win trades" that made the team worse.

Trading a draft pick and prospect for an 80 point LW in his prime is the opposite of what Bergevin would do.


A first + prospect is a good price, isn't it?

Tanking for the sake of tanking won't work, I think I explained above but we don't have any assets left to sell... Byron and Drouin are both negligible both as trade assets and as performers. Next year will be a bottom10 but not bottom5 year, so we should think about building (adding talent) not just treading water and hoping to add talent somehow by magic.


Good post, I agree with the timeline. If the price for Fiala (OR ANY PLAYER LIKE HIM!) isn't huge, it should be considered. Because time is a cruel hammer and it comes whether we plan for it or not.

If there is a RHD top pairing dman available who is in his mid-20s, I'd trade Habs 1st 2023 for him too.

Not sure about trading that 2023 1st but i hear you. That being said, i'm looking at the list of top RHD in the league and i'm not sure there is one i would trade that pick for, taking age and contracts into considerations. I mean except for Makar, Fox or McCavoy who are not moving, i don't see any other RHD making sense for us. I would maybe do it for Seider but Yzerman wouldn't trade him unless he know we are getting the 1st overall.

 

[Benstheman]

Do we know what Ottawa is looking for in exchange for their 7oa?

 

[NORiculous]

Had Getzlaf not wanted to retire, he would have been a great #3C. Very solide at both ends of the ice and with good leadership. I think he would have been a perfect mentor for Wright.


I have my doubts with Fiala. He wasn’t the main weapon with the Wild. He obviously had a great season but I am not sold he would reproduce anything close to this with the Habs because he would become the main guy.

He didn’t face the toughest of opposition on the Wild and that would change with the Habs. Boldy actually faced tougher opposition.

Obviously if he was able to reproduce his season and get 80 pts as a Habs on the top line, then yes he would be a good addition. But that is far from a sure thing.

Finding good vets that can show the way for the kids is key and I am not sure Fiala is a good choice.

 

[NORiculous]

Do we know what Ottawa is looking for in exchange for their 7oa?

Probably guys that can play and show the way to the playoffs. They have a bunch of talented kids already.

Anderson would probably be of interest. A few weans ago, on the radio, mathias brunet Saïd he’d offer: Cal 1st + Anderson + Struble.


Sens are ready to take the next step so I’d guess they want players that would help them take that step.

 

[Benstheman]

Probably guys that can play and show the way to the playoffs. They have a bunch of talented kids already.

Anderson would probably be of interest. A few weans ago, on the radio, mathias brunet Saïd he’d offer: Cal 1st + Anderson + Struble.


Sens are ready to take the next step so I’d guess they want players that would help them take that step.

I would do that in a heartbeat even though i think Anderson is an important piece for the rebuild.

 

[Vachon23]

Nope.....

Starts with a Romanov, Caufield or even Suzuki.....other than that, it's not even worth entertaining the idea.
I know, we don't want to trade any of them but that would be the price, even we would need to add to someone like Romanov to get it.

NJD is hunting with that pick and they are not looking for anything else than a young established NHLer.

even Romanov, you won’t get the 2nd oa with him

Do we know what Ottawa is looking for in exchange for their 7oa?

Yes and we don’t have the asset for that

Similar situation then with NJ

 

[yianik]

Wright, Cooley, Nemec, Jiricek, Slaf. All 1st line, top pairing ceilings That is the top 5 most people talk about , so is paying up to get the 6thOA or lower even worth it ?

 

[Benstheman]

Wright, Cooley, Nemec, Jiricek, Slaf. All 1st line, top pairing ceilings That is the top 5 most people talk about , so is paying up to get the 6thOA or lower even worth it ?

I think there is a chance Kemell is taken in the top 5 and one of Nemec/Jiricek is sliding to 6, maybe even 7.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Im not seeing HuGo trade any top picks. I do think they’ll parlay some of the 14 picks in this draft that we have to move up though. We need more quality prospects now and a lot less quantity. So any additional picks we don’t use or need this year, I’d trade to next year to use to move up again and try to get more quality picks.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Guys, the point isn't that I want Kevin Fiala. It is that Kevin Fiala is available and if the Habs wish to compete in 2 years they need to on-board assets who can contribute in 1 year at the earliest. If not Kevin Fiala then someone else, but to complete a REBUILD the Habs need to BUILD (add talent).

The ultra-conservative approach is what Bergevin did when he never acquired talent and still failed to develop talent, it flat out failed. We cannot expect the Habs to suddenly become talent development maestros, it's too much of a change from their outcomes so far... so that means we should still look at trading draft picks and prospects for developed players...


Minny think he's a core piece, they cannot afford him. It isn't a Bergevin move to acquire a 80 point player because outside of 20 games of Vanek he never did in ten years. A Bergevin move would be to poo-poo an easily acquirable top player because he preferred to draft the next Ryan Poehling.

There is virtually no chance that Montreal is going to compete in two years (or four years or even six years) if they proceed with the Bergevin special of making "hockey" trades by giving up a prime asset for a prime asset. It simply wont happen.

I'm not sure where this ultra conservative Bergevin approach narrative came from, but its completely unsupported. Maybe early in his tenure when he needed to complete a core built around Pacioretty, Subban and Price, but he made significant moves basically every offseason since 2016 and was one of the most active GMs in the NHL in that time frame. What you're suggesting is looking at what Ottawa did with Duchene or what Chicago did with Jones and think that the mistake there was that those teams had too much talent and too much cap flexibility.

Montreal just had the 5th worst season of the cap era. They have one of the worst cap situations in the NHL. Once they trade Petry they'll be the only team in the NHL without an established top pair D-man or top line forward. You honestly think that trading one of their top prospects and a likely top 8 2023 1st for Fiala is getting them anywhere close to being competitive in two years?

No way. Keep the pick. Keep Roy/Farrell. Do what no GM/Owner of this franchise has been willing to do that basically every cup winner in the cap era has done. Be bad and pick high in consecutive seasons. Build value internally instead only trying to trade for it. Keep trying to find value on the edges, but please stop trying to to jump start everything. Build a real core.

And lets be clear, if Minny, who isn't even a contender, actually thought that Fiala was a core piece, they'd make moves to keep him. Its clear why they're not.

 

[ReHabs]

There is virtually no chance that Montreal is going to compete in two years (or four years or even six years) if they proceed with the Bergevin special of making "hockey" trades by giving up a prime asset for a prime asset. It simply wont happen.

I'm not sure where this ultra conservative Bergevin approach narrative came from, but its completely unsupported. Maybe early in his tenure when he needed to complete a core built around Pacioretty, Subban and Price, but he made significant moves basically every offseason since 2016 and was one of the most active GMs in the NHL in that time frame. What you're suggesting is looking at what Ottawa did with Duchene or what Chicago did with Jones and think that the mistake there was that those teams had too much talent and too much cap flexibility.

Montreal just had the 5th worst season of the cap era. They have one of the worst cap situations in the NHL. Once they trade Petry they'll be the only team in the NHL without an established top pair D-man or top line forward. You honestly think that trading one of their top prospects and a likely top 8 2023 1st for Fiala is getting them anywhere close to being competitive in two years?

No way. Keep the pick. Keep Roy/Farrell. Do what no GM/Owner of this franchise has been willing to do that basically every cup winner in the cap era has done. Be bad and pick high in consecutive seasons. Build value internally instead only trying to trade for it. Keep trying to find value on the edges, but please stop trying to to jump start everything. Build a real core.

And lets be clear, if Minny, who isn't even a contender, actually thought that Fiala was a core piece, they'd make moves to keep him. Its clear why they're not.

Bergevin never traded for talent. He swapped pieces while he drove this hockey club into the ground — but he never acquired surplus talent (and obviously never drafted/developed it either).

He acquired Vanek as a rental, didn’t keep him.

He acquired Radulov for one year, didn’t keep him.

In his penultimate season he used his excess cap space to sign Toffoli and the following season he signed Hoffman.

And that’s it.

What I’m proposing is to acknowledge the timeline is shorter than you might think. Time marches on, if we aren’t a playoff team in two years you can kiss our chances of getting somewhere goodbye. Failing for ten years is out of the question.

Moves have to be made to ACQUIRE talent asap. This is called building. To rebuild you must build.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Bergevin never traded for talent. He swapped pieces while he drove this hockey club into the ground — but he never acquired surplus talent (and obviously never drafted/developed it either).

He acquired Vanek as a rental, didn’t keep him.

He acquired Radulov for one year, didn’t keep him.

In his penultimate season he used his excess cap space to sign Toffoli and the following season he signed Hoffman.

And that’s it.

What I’m proposing is to acknowledge the timeline is shorter than you might think. Time marches on, if we aren’t a playoff team in two years you can kiss our chances of getting somewhere goodbye. Failing for ten years is out of the question.

Moves have to be made to ACQUIRE talent asap. This is called building. To rebuild you must build.

You are proposing a swapping of pieces too. You're making the kind of trade teams with actual cores make.

Honest question, how many rosters in the NHL would you not trade for Montreal's? Because personally? I'm thinking of maybe one or two.

This is the team you're pushing to simply make the playoffs in two years? And is that the goal of the Montreal Canadiens now? To be the pre-Armstrong Arizona Coyotes? Because I don't think so.

 

[yianik]

I think there is a chance Kemell is taken in the top 5 and one of Nemec/Jiricek is sliding to 6, maybe even 7.

The final lists will be interesting, but yes, there are likely to be a good number of fallers and risers during the Draft.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Bergevin never traded for talent. He swapped pieces while he drove this hockey club into the ground — but he never acquired surplus talent (and obviously never drafted/developed it either).

He acquired Vanek as a rental, didn’t keep him.

He acquired Radulov for one year, didn’t keep him.

In his penultimate season he used his excess cap space to sign Toffoli and the following season he signed Hoffman.

And that’s it.

What I’m proposing is to acknowledge the timeline is shorter than you might think. Time marches on, if we aren’t a playoff team in two years you can kiss our chances of getting somewhere goodbye. Failing for ten years is out of the question.

Moves have to be made to ACQUIRE talent asap. This is called building. To rebuild you must build.

Just to pile on, he also said he could only grow through the draft and never acquired a 1st round pick in his 10 year tenure or did much to develop his picks. Just bad management all around with no vision other than to get more grinders to fix all the holes.

 

[ReHabs]

You are proposing a swapping of pieces too. You're making the kind of trade teams with actual cores make.

Honest question, how many rosters in the NHL would you not trade for Montreal's? Because personally? I'm thinking of maybe one or two.

This is the team you're pushing to simply make the playoffs in two years? And is that the goal of the Montreal Canadiens now? To be the pre-Armstrong Arizona Coyotes? Because I don't think so.

Trading prospects and draft picks for hockey players in their prime signed to long term contracts is a critical thing that every winning organization does — and Bergevin never did it. He swapped a top player (eg Pacioretty) for pieces but he never traded draft picks and prospects for genuine productive NHL talent to add to the core.

If you spend to the cap you should be at least in contention to make the playoffs. It isn’t too hard. This long term rebuild vision is outdated. See Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida, Arizona, etc. no cups no finals. Edmonton might make it… with the best player in the world… and even they they’re the underdog against Colorado and then probably against Tampa too.

I want to trade the excessive number of picks and prospects we have to acquire good NHLers in their prime. It isn’t something strange.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Trading prospects and draft picks for hockey players in their prime signed to long term contracts is a critical thing that every winning organization does — and Bergevin never did it. He swapped a top player (eg Pacioretty) for pieces but he never traded draft picks and prospects for genuine productive NHL talent to add to the core.

If you spend to the cap you should be at least in contention to make the playoffs. It isn’t too hard. This long term rebuild vision is outdated. See Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida, Arizona, etc. no cups no finals. Edmonton might make it… with the best player in the world… and even they they’re the underdog against Colorado and then probably against Tampa too.

I want to trade the excessive number of picks and prospects we have to acquire good NHLers in their prime. It isn’t something strange.

Edmonton is in the final 4 (despite missteps to accelerate their rebuild that had the opposite effect). The Avs, Rangers and Lightning also did long-term rebuilds too for that matter. Its not outdated, its the thing that works. No cup winner in the cap era didn't pick top-10 in consecutive seasons on the way to building their team.

Its incredibly strange to advocate a team in Montreal's position to trade picks and prospects and its even stranger to categorize their 2023 1st and a guy in their 3-5 top prospect range as excessive. I'm not sure why you don't see that.

 

[ReHabs]

Edmonton is the final 4 (despite missteps to accelerate their rebuild that had the opposite effect). The Avs, Rangers and Lightning also did long-term rebuilds too for that matter. Its not outdated, its the thing that works. No cup winner in the cap era didn't pick top-10 in consecutive seasons on the way to building their team.

Its incredibly strange to advocate a team in Montreal's position to trade picks and prospects and its even stranger to categorize their 2023 1st and a guy in their 3-5 top prospect range as excessive. I'm not sure why you don't see that.

How long was the Rangers rebuild? One year, two years tops.

Tampa is an outlier. Colorado has a top5 player in the NHL and Edmonton has top1. Both were in the dumps for far too long, especially Edmonton. Then there is Buffalo and Arizona. Florida. Ottawa constantly treading water around the drain.

In regards to your second paragraph, I agree it looks strange but consider that our “forth or fifth best prospect” is essentially worthless until proven otherwise and our first in 2023 will be in the mid teens at best if we sort some things out this summer. MSL pt% with a tanking injured Habs was 0.432 or thereabouts, it’s unlikely we will be this bad next year.

I simply don’t see how the firesale can continue. I think it’s important to consider building.

And the Habs cannot have have not developed any talent of note in a very long time (decade+). Fiala or someone like him is better than yet another first round bust. I’d trade five Ryan Poehlings for a genuine 70pt winger.

 

[salbutera]

Edmonton is in the final 4 (despite missteps to accelerate their rebuild that had the opposite effect). The Avs, Rangers and Lightning also did long-term rebuilds too for that matter. Its not outdated, its the thing that works. No cup winner in the cap era didn't pick top-10 in consecutive seasons on the way to building their team.

Its incredibly strange to advocate a team in Montreal's position to trade picks and prospects and its even stranger to categorize their 2023 1st and a guy in their 3-5 top prospect range as excessive. I'm not sure why you don't see that.

Canes, Ducks, Red Wings, Bruins & Blues

 

[le_sean]

Canes, Ducks, Red Wings & Bruins

Red Wings found Hall of Famers in the 7th round. It’s not really something that can be duplicated.

Bruins had Kessel and Hamill back to back Top 10 picks. Then Seguin and Hamilton. Seguin a key piece of their Cup run.

Canes had Staal and Ladd back to back Top 5 picks. Both heavily contributed to their Cup run.

Ducks had Lupul and Smid back to back. They used those to trade for Chris Pronger.

 

[Captain Mountain]

How long was the Rangers rebuild? One year, two years tops.

Tampa is an outlier. Colorado has a top5 player in the NHL and Edmonton has top1. Both were in the dumps for far too long, especially Edmonton. Then there is Buffalo and Arizona. Florida. Ottawa constantly treading water around the drain.

In regards to your second paragraph, I agree it looks strange but consider that our “forth or fifth best prospect” is essentially worthless until proven otherwise and our first in 2023 will be in the mid teens at best if we sort some things out this summer. MSL pt% with a tanking injured Habs was 0.432 or thereabouts, it’s unlikely we will be this bad next year.

I simply don’t see how the firesale can continue. I think it’s important to consider building.

And the Habs cannot have have not developed any talent of note in a very long time (decade+). Fiala or someone like him is better than yet another first round bust. I’d trade five Ryan Poehlings for a genuine 70pt winger.

-The Rangers rebuild was 4 years. They also had key pieces.

-Tampa picked in the top 10 in 5 of 6 drafts from 2008 to 2013.

-How did the Avs get that top-5 player? Was it perhaps part of their stretch from 2009 to 2013 of picking in the top-3 every other year? Or more broadly, picking top-10.

-I really don't need to rehash Edmonton's accrual of top picks, do I?

Building is not paying big for established players when they're going to be paid massive contracts for career years. Building is drafting elite talent and nurturing it to build a contending core.Hopefully ones that will take slight discounts in their prime for an opportunity to win a cup.

Montreal is not going to fire-sale as much anymore. That doesn't mean they're going to go contender mode and go big game hunting for the biggest names on the market. Because they're nowhere close to that.

Bergevin and Timmins are gone largely because the Habs have not developed any talent of note in a very long time. Its the area HuGo have focused the most on when coming in. Its a non-replaceable part of team building. You live and die by it, but you don't do the Bergevin thing of just trying to make the playoffs, where "anything can happen". We've seen the peak of that strategy already.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Do we know what Ottawa is looking for in exchange for their 7oa?

Fans will say Suzuki or Caufield when it's not worth any more than Guhle

 

[sampollock]

What is the latest on Petry?

has to ask his wife

 

[Captain Mountain]

Canes, Ducks, Red Wings, Bruins & Blues

Canes: Picked in the top-4 from 2003 to 2005
Ducks: Picked in the top-10 in '04 and '05
Bruins: Even without the Kessel trade, picked in the top-10 in '06 and '07

Blues are an exception (although they picked in the top-4 in '06 and '08). Red Wings are kind of difficult because while they didn't pick high in or near the cap era, their dominance was built on tanking in the '80s and early '90s and building from there.

So as best as I can tell, the ways around being bad for a while are either:

1) Be a dynasty team for so long that finds a clear competitive imbalance that the NHL takes way to long to catch up to and coast on that as long as possible.

2) Waiver a bit more in terms of being bad like the Blues and abuse teams in some of the most lopsided trades of the decade.

Or, hear me out, maybe Montreal can feel the pain for a bit for meaningful gain. Like everyone else. Although if winning a cup isn't that important, doing what they've done for the last 30 years with likely the same results works too.

 

[ReHabs]

-The Rangers rebuild was 4 years. They also had key pieces.

-Tampa picked in the top 10 in 5 of 6 drafts from 2008 to 2013.

-How did the Avs get that top-5 player? Was it perhaps part of their stretch from 2009 to 2013 of picking in the top-3 every other year? Or more broadly, picking top-10.

-I really don't need to rehash Edmonton's accrual of top picks, do I?

Building is not paying big for established players when they're going to be paid massive contracts for career years. Building is drafting elite talent and nurturing it to build a contending core.Hopefully ones that will take slight discounts in their prime for an opportunity to win a cup.

Montreal is not going to fire-sale as much anymore. That doesn't mean they're going to go contender mode and go big game hunting for the biggest names on the market. Because they're nowhere close to that.

Bergevin and Timmins are gone largely because the Habs have not developed any talent of note in a very long time. Its the area HuGo have focused the most on when coming in. Its a non-replaceable part of team building. You live and die by it, but you don't do the Bergevin thing of just trying to make the playoffs, where "anything can happen". We've seen the peak of that strategy already.

Montreal has not developed prospects in an acceptable way. You can’t just assume that they can suddenly do so because there’s a new (rookie!!) GM on board.

So you want a five+ year rebuild? The Avs tanked for five years ten years ago and Edmonton tanks and sucked for even longer and now one of them won’t even make the cup final in 2022.

This is not sustainable!

We disagree, so be it.

But I insist wasting time is no way to build a team and no way to impress the fans.

All this is is wasting time.

The Habs have Suzuki, Caufield, Wright already, bunch of young dmen prospects, and a bunch of shitty contracts they can’t get rid of.

The best thing to do is to add talent at all times and to churn through ineffective contracts for more cost effective ones (ie Byron -> Pitlick).

You add premium talent and can always sell it and make moves. You don’t add talent and just sit on your hands hoping for prospects to make it, with this god awful development regime we’ve had for the last 30 years, and you’ll get nowhere. That’s the Bergevin way.