Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 77

[jrom]

Getting the Flyers 5th pick is something that could happen. The top forwards should be gone, maybe they don’t care about drafting Jiricek or Nemec (or Savoie).

Petry, Mailloux, Evans, Dvorak, cap hits to be able to UFA sign Gaudreau (JVR for example), something like that + bad GM on Philadelphia’s side

 

[ReHabs]

You are correct, which is why competing next year is next to impossible.

FYI LTIR does not exist during the offseason, injured players count against the cap right until the season starts.

I see. So the Weber contract has to be dumped asap, giving 7.8m of breathing room. What a terrible acquisition for a Win Now team, we won less than one playoff round a season in our Weber era.

91.8 - (10.5+5.5) = 75.8

Still not good. Need to dump two of Armia, Byron, and Petry too.

Yeah I have my worries that Fiala produces because he plays with Kaprizov. He has pretty terrible playoff stats too.

This is a fair concern to have tbh. Hopefully if the Habs try to get him they would feel reasonably sure he is not a pumpkin or excessively carried by his linemates.

 

[L4br3cqu3]

Yeah I have my worries that Fiala produces because he plays with Kaprizov. He has pretty terrible playoff stats too.

This.

Can you clarify something for me...

How is an 80pt player a 'hopeful patching' acquisition? Is this trauma from the Bergevin years of downplaying possible talent acquisition speaking or do you seriously think an 80pt player would not immediately become a key core contributor?

Drouin had never broken 53 points prior to his acquisition. Fiala just hit 80. They're not comparable.

Any given 80 point player would totally change the core of a team. A core is only 5-7 players anyway, Fiala would be our best forward (until proven otherwise by Suzuki, Caulfield, or Wright).

How else do you built a team for real other than by acquiring talented players by any means necessary?

The Wild is a much better team than the Habs, and I don't expect Fiala to be as impactful on the Habs, hence the 'hopeful patching'.

I mentionned Drouin cause he was seen as a potential impact forward, a play driver, a 'savior'. It failed miserably, of course. I don't think brining Fiala would fail as hard as Drouin did, but what we'd have to give for him vs what he would bring on a rebuilding team like the Habs would be a failure in itself.

Not worth the price, especially not a '23 1st round draft pick.

We're just not 'there' yet.

 

[ReHabs]

The Wild is a much better team than the Habs, and I don't expect Fiala to be as impactful on the Habs, hence the 'hopeful patching'.

I mentionned Drouin cause he was seen as a potential impact forward, a play driver, a 'savior'. It failed miserably, of course. I don't think brining Fiala would fail as hard as Drouin did, but what we'd have to give for him vs what he would bring on a rebuilding team like the Habs would be a failure in itself.

Not worth the price, especially not a '23 1st round draft pick.

We're just not 'there' yet.

The Wild are not a much better team overall. Both organizations are pretty similar in a lot of ways actually. This season of course they were much better than the Habs but this season was an aberration for the Habs and next season the Habs will be better and the Wild will be much worse (due to their Cap issues).

Drouin and Fiala are incomparable so let's agree to disagree with that line of analysis.

I don't think the Habs will still be "rebuilding" (ie SELLING) this time next year. There will be turnover and churn but it won't be a tank or sell-off, take a look at our contracts: we will only have Hoffman, Savard, and Eddy to sell by this time next year. We will be "building" (ie BUYING/DRAFTING/SIGNING). Acquiring Fiala a year early will immediately reinforce this.

I mean, it's just as likely we don't trade for Fiala at all but I'm just thinking out loud here. I don't think MTL 1st Round Pick 2023 is more valuable than a 25-26 year old 80pt winger. As I mused above, the timeline is urgent even though we think we're just starting the rebuild. By the time the 2023 MTL first round pick is contributing to the Habs organization, Suzuki will be a weathered veteran of 27 years of age. I think if the trade pick is top3 protected then it's closer to fair value.

 

[le_sean]

The Wild are not a much better team overall. Both organizations are pretty similar in a lot of ways actually. This season of course they were much better than the Habs but this season was an aberration for the Habs and next season the Habs will be better and the Wild will be much worse (due to their Cap issues).

Drouin and Fiala are incomparable so let's agree to disagree with that line of analysis.

I don't think the Habs will still be "rebuilding" (ie SELLING) this time next year. There will be turnover and churn but it won't be a tank or sell-off, take a look at our contracts: we will only have Hoffman, Savard, and Eddy to sell by this time next year. We will be "building" (ie BUYING/DRAFTING/SIGNING). Acquiring Fiala a year early will immediately reinforce this.

I mean, it's just as likely we don't trade for Fiala at all but I'm just thinking out loud here. I don't think MTL 1st Round Pick 2023 is more valuable than a 25-26 year old 80pt winger. As I mused above, the timeline is urgent even though we think we're just starting the rebuild. By the time the 2023 MTL first round pick is contributing to the Habs organization, Suzuki will be a weathered veteran of 27 years of age. I think if the trade pick is top3 protected then it's closer to fair value.

The 113 point Wild with 310 goals for are not much better than the 55 point team? That’s a new one.

 

[L4br3cqu3]

The Wild are not a much better team overall. Both organizations are pretty similar in a lot of ways actually. This season of course they were much better than the Habs but this season was an aberration for the Habs and next season the Habs will be better and the Wild will be much worse (due to their Cap issues).

Drouin and Fiala are incomparable so let's agree to disagree with that line of analysis.

I don't think the Habs will still be "rebuilding" (ie SELLING) this time next year. There will be turnover and churn but it won't be a tank or sell-off, take a look at our contracts: we will only have Hoffman, Savard, and Eddy to sell by this time next year. We will be "building" (ie BUYING/DRAFTING/SIGNING). Acquiring Fiala a year early will immediately reinforce this.

I mean, it's just as likely we don't trade for Fiala at all but I'm just thinking out loud here. I don't think MTL 1st Round Pick 2023 is more valuable than a 25-26 year old 80pt winger. As I mused above, the timeline is urgent even though we think we're just starting the rebuild. By the time the 2023 MTL first round pick is contributing to the Habs organization, Suzuki will be a weathered veteran of 27 years of age. I think if the trade pick is top3 protected then it's closer to fair value.

We need to be patient for once, there's no 'urgent' situation, and we don't need to rush things, and if Wright can get into the lineup right next season, chances are that the '23 pick will be even better, so Suzuki won't have to wait 4-5 years before we compete again, not that Fiala would instantly make us a contender anyway.

I explained my point precedently, I still disagree with your point of view, you're obviously more optimistic for next year than I am, but I respect your opinion.

Cheers.

 

[Vachon23]

Well I don't see the fuss for the 2nd OA anyway and it seems we don't have the players. Our best hockey players we would be willing to move are Dvorak, Petry and Anderson. So I guess there isn't a deal there to be made.

Yes, we just don't have the pieces to trade for the #2

 

[CHfan1]

You are correct, which is why competing next year is next to impossible.

FYI LTIR does not exist during the offseason, injured players count against the cap right until the season starts.

Are you sure?

Can LTIR be used in the off-season?​

Yes, LTIR can be used in the off-season while the 10% off-season cushion is active. LTIR in the off-season is calculated using the basic equation outlined above, which permits a team to exceed the off-season salary cap. To use off-season LTIR the team must provide doctors proof that the player in question will continue to be injured at the beginning of the regular season for 10 NHL games and 24 calendar days.

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

What about LTIR? (Updated)

As explained by James Mirtle, it has recently been revealed that LTIR can in fact be utilized in the off-season. Previously it was understood that this was not possible, and LTIR could only be used leading into the season on the final day of training camp. With this news, it is likely that Horton has already been placed on LTIR, allowing the Leafs to exceed the salary cap of $82.5M, and therefore they have enough space to sign RFA Connor Brown.

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

 

[BozoTheClown]

The Wild are not a much better team overall. Both organizations are pretty similar in a lot of ways actually. This season of course they were much better than the Habs but this season was an aberration for the Habs and next season the Habs will be better and the Wild will be much worse (due to their Cap issues).

Drouin and Fiala are incomparable so let's agree to disagree with that line of analysis.

I don't think the Habs will still be "rebuilding" (ie SELLING) this time next year. There will be turnover and churn but it won't be a tank or sell-off, take a look at our contracts: we will only have Hoffman, Savard, and Eddy to sell by this time next year. We will be "building" (ie BUYING/DRAFTING/SIGNING). Acquiring Fiala a year early will immediately reinforce this.

I mean, it's just as likely we don't trade for Fiala at all but I'm just thinking out loud here. I don't think MTL 1st Round Pick 2023 is more valuable than a 25-26 year old 80pt winger. As I mused above, the timeline is urgent even though we think we're just starting the rebuild. By the time the 2023 MTL first round pick is contributing to the Habs organization, Suzuki will be a weathered veteran of 27 years of age. I think if the trade pick is top3 protected then it's closer to fair value.

Compare the team’s record the last 7 years and take in consideration the Covid special treatment we got from Betman, we miss the playoffs 5 consecutive years and 6 out of the last 7 seasons. And this is with us being in the weakest division in hockey for many years.
Now look at the division the Wild in playing in, look at the points total, the amount of time they made the playoffs and the players on the team, and you will see that they are a much better team.

The best thing to do is to stay the course and tank a couple more season while acquiring extra 1st round picks. There are no other ways to rebuild this team. Fiala at 7+ million won’t help much.

 

[ReHabs]

The 113 point Wild with 310 goals for are not much better than the 55 point team? That’s a new one.

They will not be a 113 point team next year nor will the Habs be a 55 point team.

I'm all for a "proper rebuild" but to rebuild you need to build and to build means to acquire good players at all times. If not Fiala then another player, if not that player then another player. etc.

 

[Weltschmerz]

You are correct, which is why competing next year is next to impossible.

FYI LTIR does not exist during the offseason, injured players count against the cap right until the season starts.

Then what does this mean:

Can LTIR be used in the off-season?​

Yes, LTIR can be used in the off-season while the 10% off-season cushion is active. LTIR in the off-season is calculated using the basic equation outlined above, which permits a team to exceed the off-season salary cap. To use off-season LTIR the team must provide doctors proof that the player in question will continue to be injured at the beginning of the regular season for 10 NHL games and 24 calendar days.

At the start of the season the teams LTIR relief & ACSL is recalculated when the 10% cushion is removed.

Source:

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

edit: ok guess I was too slow

 

[bcv]

Are you sure?

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

Well, I’ll be damned! Sorry everyone for the bad info. I thought I read that somewhere

 

[ReHabs]

So we don’t necessarily have cap overage issues in this case if we can prove Weber and Price are on super LTIR. That’s a relief. (Pun intended!)

As I understand, Weber’s case is similar to Price’s — both have significant pain to the point they cannot play and it cannot be fixed without surgery that can debilitate or greatly risk their careers. Hence it is a Stale Mate sort of LTIR, a career ending non-move: can’t play without the surgery and can’t have the surgery without ending their playing prospects. If they have the surgery then they’ll not be able to be on LTIR, I think that’s the core of the problem and why Weber’s status especially is under scrutiny.

 

[Sebastien]

The Wild are not a much better team overall. Both organizations are pretty similar in a lot of ways actually. This season of course they were much better than the Habs but this season was an aberration for the Habs and next season the Habs will be better and the Wild will be much worse (due to their Cap issues).

Drouin and Fiala are incomparable so let's agree to disagree with that line of analysis.

I don't think the Habs will still be "rebuilding" (ie SELLING) this time next year. There will be turnover and churn but it won't be a tank or sell-off, take a look at our contracts: we will only have Hoffman, Savard, and Eddy to sell by this time next year. We will be "building" (ie BUYING/DRAFTING/SIGNING). Acquiring Fiala a year early will immediately reinforce this.

I mean, it's just as likely we don't trade for Fiala at all but I'm just thinking out loud here. I don't think MTL 1st Round Pick 2023 is more valuable than a 25-26 year old 80pt winger. As I mused above, the timeline is urgent even though we think we're just starting the rebuild. By the time the 2023 MTL first round pick is contributing to the Habs organization, Suzuki will be a weathered veteran of 27 years of age. I think if the trade pick is top3 protected then it's closer to fair value.

Wild are losing one player in Fiala. Fleury will be resigned to be a starter or wild keep Talbot as starter and sign a backup. They aren't losing anything more, so they won't be a much worse team

 

[Sorinth]

Well, I’ll be damned! Sorry everyone for the bad info. I thought I read that somewhere

It was like that when the cap first came into existence and then was later changed.

 

[KevSkillz4]

Trading a player like Josh Anderson will be a big mistake... he is a perfect top 6 powerforward to complete a C like Shane Wright.

 

[HuGort]

Trading a player like Josh Anderson will be a big mistake... he is a perfect top 6 powerforward to complete a C like Shane Wright.

You want some grit and physical play. Has to be a mix

 

[alasania94]

He’s an 80 point player and he’s just entering his prime. If we want depth this is depth.

he's had 1 80 point season - 65 average last two years. call him a 70 point offensive ONLY left winger. his defensive results suck as well.

 

[Aces on the road]

Trading a player like Josh Anderson will be a big mistake... he is a perfect top 6 powerforward to complete a C like Shane Wright.

But Anderson is not power forward, not even close. Only chasing break aways

 

[ReHabs]

he's had 1 80 point season - 65 average last two years. call him a 70 point offensive ONLY left winger. his defensive results suck as well.

So he’s better and more accomplished than every single one of our forwards. Okay, yeah we don’t need him. Let’s keep running the team the Bergevin way.

 

[Captain Mountain]

So he’s better and more accomplished than every single one of our forwards. Okay, yeah we don’t need him. Let’s keep running the team the Bergevin way.

I think the better question is if he's a core piece. Personally, I don't think he is. I think he's closer to the Domi category than a core piece. Nashville and Minny don't think he's a core piece either.

Acquiring Fiala feels like a Bergevin move more than anything else. Making moves to try to always compete more next season without actually doing the hard building work for long term success was his defining characteristic.

 

[alasania94]

So he’s better and more accomplished than every single one of our forwards. Okay, yeah we don’t need him. Let’s keep running the team the Bergevin way.

convinced YOU'RE Bergevin in disguise.

 

[Takeru]

They won the two cups prior to giving Brown the contract, not after signing it. They only made the playoffs 3 times since signing Brown to the contract (2014 offseason).

Was about to post a similar reply, the chronology was indeed reversed. They won their cups while brown was making similar money to gallys previous contract.

Adding to that, giving this kind of golden handshake contract is much more palatable when your team actually won championships (though you ideally would avoid doing so).

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Fiali does remind me of domi, wouldnt give up much for him honnestly. Lets just tank and wait and see what happens is that such a bad thing to do?

 

[Captain Mountain]

Fiali does remind me of domi, wouldnt give up much for him honnestly. Lets just tank and wait and see what happens is that such a bad thing to do?

Fiala is better than Domi, but he's also going to be far more expensive in trade assets and a new contract. I just don't think Montreal is in a position to add a guy like Fiala. He's the kind of guy that should be your 3rd to 5th best forward. If he's your best forward then you should be rebuilding.