True, but your concern was burning bridges. Which I took to mean that it would eliminate any future contact with the RedWings.
Burnt bridges can be rebuilt... I dont think any situation would "eliminate any future contact" btw two clubs (though I suspect some GMs may well hold such grudges as to refuse to deal with each other... But that kind of immaturity doesn't seem to fit either KH or Yzerman)
I'll give you this. That would be considered an "asshole" move. That could cause future ramifications. My reasoning for doing it would be to improve our team. Sadly there would probably be some hurt feelings along the way.
How would a failed OS improve our team? (Premise I replied to was an OS we know will be matched just to Tie up wings cap at higher $)
Yes, that is the ideal way to do things. It's a business though, so I like looking at all my options. Some may be pleasant, some not so much.
Absolutely. KH & Gorton seem to be bigger picture thinkers, and have shown no hesitation to accept unpleasant options in implementing their vision (like accommodating players where possible, even at unpleasant short term "cost" of not maximizing immediate return, which some fans don't like... )
Agreed, but everything he's shown so far, shows he's heading in that direction. To have a shot at getting him. You'd have to pay above market value.
Sure. But the premise wasn't about "getting him" it was about forcing Red Wings to pay more than they want to keep him.
As good as he is, I don't think he's worth pursuing at any cost necessary to get him.
An OS that Red Wings wouldn't match, would likely be at a cap hit we shouldn't offer either. Hence my point that the whole premise is unrealistic... If the Red Wings were in the Oilers situation (or the Stars with Harley), them count me in to use the OS to legitimately try to get a player like that...
I'm a big proponent of OS in general. This specific premise was just unrealistic and of poorly considered strategic value.
Oh they do, especially since they've made Salaries available for everyone to see. In saying that, do you not think players pay attention to improvements made by management? Would the players be happy if they didn't try to improve the team. Just so they can keep within a certain financial limit?
I don't think it's either/or.
But I do think that they are selling the young core on their commitment to build a sustainable cup contending roster... And have been successful thus far getting long term commitments at very team friendly terms as a result. Giving an external RFA a massive premium on a similar long term deal would run the risk of rubbing that same young core the wrong way, and make it unlikely future internal RFAs accept anything less than market premium. I suspect the Blues may face this issue next summer with any of their in house RFAs that have a good year... "Fortunately" for them, they don't have any blue chip prospects to worry about.
If it were just about "improving the team", they could've spent on July 1st... Re-signed/not traded Monahan... Trade picks/prospects for immediate help etc. we'll see very quickly this season how bought in our core is with how mnmgt approached the offseason. I suspect we'll see continued buy in even if the team struggles.
Yes it's commendable that they were able to do that for such a long period of time. But do you think they'd say "Meh Leon Draisaitl wants to sign with us" "But he'd make more than Marchand/Pastrnak, so we'll have to pass". If the right situation arises, things change.
UFA & RFA are different situations. Players and agents get that even if some fans don't appreciate the nuances.
Here I'll speak from personal experience... Athletes generally get the business side of pro sports (especially the more successful ones), and when it comes to comparing contract outcomes & demands, precedence of similar situations matters, a lot. It's far easier to ignore a $ discrepancy when the context doesn't apply to you. When you view a similar player situation handled completely differently, it's easy to feel disrespected, and that matters a lot more than fans tend to realize...
Yes, there might be some resentment. The bottom line is, these players want to win. So I'd hope they'd be more concerned with that. Then if they got enough on their latest contract.
As the lafs have shown, paying market premiums for outside elite talent is no guarantee of winning... Bs won more with guys taking less than Laffs have landing top dollar FA & having to pay in house talent accordingly.
I think the players that have signed long term want to win and believe in the plan KH laid out for how we'll get there... Worst thing he could do would be to go off script chasing an unrealistic OS, especially (as the premise of my response was about) for the purpose of getting a rival team to spend a marginal amount more in cap rather than actually improving our roster.
They'd be left with no Seider and no credibility in making a case for next wave of RFA's to fall in line with the examples set by CC/Slaf/Suzuki/Guhle.
Yes I can see it, if you had two players currently on the team, who were valued equally. Yet one was paid more than the other. In the case of adding a player who makes more money, too improve the team. I would hope the players would understand, and not sulk over it.
Agree... If talking UFA
But RFA context is a different given the team control. Completely different negotiation context.
They could look at it like that. If their only concern was for themselves. Or they could look at it as management is doing all they can to improve the team.
Any reasonably informed athlete in a cap system knows that managing the cap is crucial to winning.
OS Seider isn't a net addition, there's a significant cost of acquisition there, one that includes shedding roster depth now (5-6M would need to be cut, likely with further pick cost to do so).
At a cap hit the red Wings would actually decline, I don't think we'd be improved in our goal of building a contender/winning a cup.
So in other words, we should forget about adding a player who will make more money than Suzuki? Which would limit our team to how well Suzuki does. If RB, Hutson & Demidov all hit their potential, they will get paid. Also who's to say that all or any of them will follow the trend set by Suzuki?
Nope. That's a silly premise.
Sticking to the plan set out, the one several of your young core committed long term to, on the other hand, is how you build a sustainable culture of excellence... The kind where players are more likely to follow the trend set by the core leaders. Again, Boston is a good example of that.
Pats during Brady's prime & Chiefs currently under Mahomes, Spurs with Duncan/Parker/Ginobili...
It's the exception rather than the rule because it's very hard to execute and inevitably some great talent ends up leaving... But to build sustainable excellence in a cap system, you pretty much need to get that kind of core buy- in. Habs appear to be following that formula very well, and appear to have the kind of patience required to see it through... Many fans will protest and complain (as we've seen all summer lol) but the point is to build a winner, not to win a popularity contest.
No organization, whether it be an NHL team, Microsoft or your local mom and pop pizza shop. Will follow a long term plan to the letter. There are always going to be issues or factors that force you to alter your plans. I'd be quite surprised if HuGo's long term plan, is set in stone. Without allowing for some flexibility.
Sure. But flexibility is not the same as going off script.
Most organizations don't have the discipline to stay the course... That's why in every sport and industry there are outliers who enjoy outsized success vis a vis their relative tangible competitive advantages.
Excellence is about doing the simple, basic, boring things better and more consistently than everyone else... And that kind of discipline is so rare that it's hard to recognize.
Since HuGo hasn't done this. It's me that's throwing darts at the dart board. I made the decision based on my little knowledge of Seider. Where if HuGo were to follow that route. I'm sure a lot more time, thought and effort, would be put into the decision.
Agreed
Yes, and I agree with you. I"ve already said it's an asshole move, that really doesn't accomplish anything positive. Except maybe putting the Wings in a tight situation financially.
My point of making the OS to Seider is to get him.
Ok. And from what you know of Seider and of the Red Wings cap & roster/prospect situation, what OS # do you think it takes for him to sign and the red Wings not match?
The premise of 11M as an asshole move to bump up the Wings cap charge was what I called out as unrealistic from every perspective. It's a silly & self-defeating idea that, fortunately, would be completely out of character to the current leadership group.
The premise of an OS that actually gets us the player is a different question...
I think OS are a tool every GM should be ready to use. When MB bungled the Aho OS, the issue was precisely that he made an offer easily and obviously matched (apparently from some misguided idea the Canes owner couldn't/wouldn't match for cash flow reasons IIRC)
I have a hard time seeing the Wings balk at any number that wouldn't also be stupid for us to pay him (plus the 4*1st cost, the first of which might well still be a lottery pick even with Seider in house when you consider our roster as is would have to trim another 5-6M$ by opening day)...
Curious what # you think works?