Phoenix LXXX: Is there another way out?

[Finlandia WOAT]

Because it is quite obvious that most of them don't care about hockey at all and it is also pretty obvious that EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD, even us in hockey-mad Quebec City, would prefer good firemen to a hockey team. But, yeah, I guess we aren't in their minds.

Come on. This isn't a choice between "good firemen" and a hockey team. Pick one, the other establishment goes away forever.

I don't give a damn what they want.
I do know what they don't want though.

That's why the guy who said he would kick the Coyotes to the curb won the election for CoG Council, aimrite?

 

[Major4Boarding]

there may be options for the team and the city to tap into new revenue streams to find additional money beyond the $6million the city has budgeted for an arena manager, he [edit: Councilman manny martinez] said.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/20130528nhl-executives-potential-coyotes-buyers-meet-at-glendale-city-hall.html

This... translates to this


Feb 11th, 2013

"We understand that there are some cash constraints, but at the same time, we can't do a deal that wouldn't be economically feasible for us," LeBlanc said. "It's a verbose way of saying, 'Look, we understand that it won't be the same deal, but we're trying to find a middle ground that would make sense for both sides.'"

From the article yesterday (5/24)

It may not be adequate, Sherwood said. Council members may have to consider new revenue streams to generate additional funds if NHL-affiliated interests or outside management companies seek more to manage the arena.

The council may have to consider implementing higher ticket surcharges for events at the arena, parking fees at the arena or a special tax district, Sherwood said.

The alternative, he said, is losing the Coyotes and the revenue the team brings to the city. The problem is that city officials are uncertain what the possible trade-off might be.

From February

It’s possible to reach a new agreement, but any deal would have to have some provisions of an arena-management arrangement, said LeBlanc, a resident of Thunder Bay, Ontario, which is about 350 miles northeast of Minneapolis.

“The city would like to see some more revenue streams at their disposal, and I think there’s ways to make that happen. Our main thing, obviously, is we’ve got to keep the integrity of the hockey side of the operation.â€

His group is willing to discuss forgoing some revenue streams, such as ticket surcharges on non-hockey events at the 17,125-seat arena, he said.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=66576769&postcount=882

 

[Ugmo]

I have a question: why do people keep predisposing what Glendale citizens want?

If Glendale citizens cared more about the team than about their police and fire services, attendance wouldn't be so poor.

 

[Ugmo]

Doug Maclean on Hockey Central yesterday said it was his understanding that the NHL was playing hardball with the COG using Seattle as leverage, when the NBA deal fell apart the NHL has been much kinder to the COG. He told Bill Daily to call him up if he was wrong.

That makes literally no sense at all. Using a city as leverage that has neither an announced owner, a suitable building nor a pre-existing hockey-crazed fanbase as leverage knowing full well that the NBA plan could collapse at any moment, when you have the very tangible leverage option of a city that has a billionaire media mogul who wants a team, a new 400 million dollar arena on the way and a fanbase that would pay close to the highest ticket prices in the league? And then when the Seattle deal falls through, he decides to be nice to the CoG rather than using Quebec City as leverage? I want some of what Doug Maclean is smoking.

 

[Brodie]

I don't think most Glendale citizens know or care either way

 

[Llama19]

With cuts to other services... yes that will fly with the citizens of Glendale...

Glendale voters reject Prop. 457, measure to undo sales-tax hike

To quote:

"Proposition 457 aimed to give voters a say on the city’s hard-pressed finances. The citizens initiative aimed to undo the 0.7 percentage-point increase and require future sales-tax hikes to go to voters for approval.

But some city leaders cautioned the tax hike’s repeal would decimate city services to residents. The city’s worst-case scenario projected the need to cut a quarter of its staff, reducing emergency response times, hurting libraries and other services if the tax was repealed."

Source: http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/20121105glendale-voters-proposition-457.html

Even with the tax rate increase, our 'budget' still has quite the 'shortfall.'

There were still cuts to our general city services, police and fire positions, etc., and will be 'tight' for the next several years when the 'tax increase' is set to sunset in 2017.

The 'tentative' amount of $6.5 million set aside for the arena management fee 'bids' are still pending final submission from all parties interested.

Is that the 'announcement' the NHL was so keen on avoiding with yesterday's 'eleventh hour' private meetings with members of the council?

Excuse me, is there a way out?

 

[Brodie]

That makes literally no sense at all. Using a city as leverage that has neither an announced owner, a suitable building nor a pre-existing hockey-crazed fanbase as leverage knowing full well that the NBA plan could collapse at any moment, when you have the very tangible leverage option of a city that has a billionaire media mogul who wants a team, a new 400 million dollar arena on the way and a fanbase that would pay close to the highest ticket prices in the league? And then when the Seattle deal falls through, he decides to be nice to the CoG rather than using Quebec City as leverage? I want some of what Doug Maclean is smoking.

this presupposes that the NHL has ever actually wanted to move the Coyotes to QC. I submit that if they ever did, they quickly forgot about it the moment someone mentioned the S word.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

If Glendale citizens cared more about the team than about their police and fire services, attendance wouldn't be so poor.

You're using a flimsy logical connection to whitewash the opinions of thousands of people to suit your own opinion.

Attendance has nothing to do with police or fire services. It's because the team is a lame duck, barely scraping by year after year. Lame duck teams historically draw poorly.

 

[Ugmo]

You're using a flimsy logical connection to whitewash the opinions of thousands of people to suit your own opinion.

Attendance has nothing to do with police or fire services. It's because the team is a lame duck, barely scraping by year after year. Lame duck teams historically draw poorly.

Ahhhh, that's why! It's because the team has been a lame duck since 1996? Now it makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Ugmo]

this presupposes that the NHL has ever actually wanted to move the Coyotes to QC.

No it doesn't. Doug McClean's poorly thought out hypothesis is that the league wants to put pressure on the City of Glendale. Any market will suffice for that... especially a hockey crazed market with a new arena coming online.

What doesn't make sense is the league trying to put pressure on CoG with the threat of a city with no arena, no owner and no pre-existing fanbase.

Edit: Also, the idea that playing nice with Glendale somehow involves telling them their RFP is "silly."

 

[knorthern knight]

“The city would like to see some more revenue streams at their disposal, and I think there’s ways to make that happen. Our main thing, obviously, is we’ve got to keep the integrity of the hockey side of the operation.â€

His group is willing to discuss forgoing some revenue streams, such as ticket surcharges on non-hockey events at the 17,125-seat arena, he said.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/sh...&postcount=882

Errrr, uhmmmm, WHAT "non-hockey events at the 17,125-seat arena"? Thanks to the NHL's gross mis-management, bordering on sabotage, there are like about 3 per year. It'll take several months, close to a year, before the new manager's work shows signs of paying off. National/global tours are booked months in advance, and conventions are booked years in advance.

 

[Brodie]

does anyone believe that the Coyotes are still there in a decade, regardless of Gosbee buying the team or not? The NHL has destroyed that market so thoroughly that I can't imagine it could ever really work.

 

[Killion]

I don't know, buddy. I really don't. Just a gut feeling.

Im not seeing it nor am I "feeling" it in my gut Kevy. They've approved the fiscal Budget, capped the AMF@6M, their broker than broke and cant be robbing Peter to pay Paul. Theres nowhere from whence they can find an extra $2M, $4M or $9M short of shutting down entire departments within the bureaucracy as was voiced by Sherwood & Weiers contemplatively several weeks ago, wiping out the Communications Department. Sherwood in fact voting against the Budget last night more or less in protest over the Cities decision to not go down that road in trying to find money to satisfy any would-be owners in requesting more than the $6M allocated with further cuts to services. Weiers just swung the gavel during the tentative budget meeting and declared enough, its $6M, all there is, we go to vote Tuesday May 28th, it passed, thats it thats all. They cant re-jig it, cant move money around without committing political Hari-Kari and jeopardizing critical services, its just not there, not on.

So, where then does Sherwood think he's going to find these extra funds? The only thing I can think of would be to establish a CFD, and thats a return to yesterday, whereby the last time Le Blanc & Jones tried that on, they asked that Glendale guarantee minimums, and of course their projections wildly optimistic. Yet Glendale tried to accommodate, getting Ellman on-side (returning $20M of $40M that was being held in escrow pursuant to a parking garage that was never built, then causing all kinds of problems with the Bidwells who threatened to sue over its loss & the loss of parking thereafter visa-vie Tanger etc) who would have had to have had all of his merchants & restaurants etc agreeing to voluntarily tack on a special luxury tax on top of the already high (and subsequently increased further) rates.

No doubt Renaissance has a fully formed business plan that would include price increases to tickets & suites, that they'll begin charging for parking, that they'll be able to re-sell the naming rights to the building (though how they do that if their on a short-term lease with an out clause I have no idea) & receive those proceeds, that they can substantively increase non-hockey bookings, sell sponsorships & advertising combined with RS & the NHL Development Fund and make a go of it. Yet here we are again, and clearly they are looking for more from the COG in the form of tax generated revenues over & above the $6M allocated, and purportedly if Le Blanc's words are to be believed, "Jamison like fee's". I cant imagine Weiers nor 4, possibly 5 of the 6 Council members even contemplating a guaranteed minimum on a CFD, so where then, how does the City satisfy such a request, and why should they even bother trying when if guaranteed Goldwater, the Cops, Fire Department & God knows would be all over them like white on rice?....

 

[GuelphStormer]

That makes literally no sense at all. Using a city as leverage that has neither an announced owner, a suitable building nor a pre-existing hockey-crazed fanbase as leverage knowing full well that the NBA plan could collapse at any moment, when you have the very tangible leverage option of a city that has a billionaire media mogul who wants a team, a new 400 million dollar arena on the way and a fanbase that would pay close to the highest ticket prices in the league? And then when the Seattle deal falls through, he decides to be nice to the CoG rather than using Quebec City as leverage? I want some of what Doug Maclean is smoking.

i dunno, i think its makes as much sense as "give us $25M or we will move the team", followed the next year with "give us another $25M or we we really move the team this time".

fwiw, i don't think alice ever figured ralph could actually knock her to the moon, but it never stopped him from threatening.

 

[cbcwpg]

There may be options for the team and the city to tap into new revenue streams to find additional money beyond the $6million the city has budgeted for an arena manager, he said.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/...oyotes-buyers-meet-at-glendale-city-hall.html

This is one quote I'm not buying into at all. First off, they have budgeted $6M for the arena manager. That number has been put to paper and is the number that gets voted on and passed, so unless I'm wrong, there is no changing the $6M. So that leaves us with "new revenue streams".

Don't you think that if the CoG had any ideas on how to generate more revenue for themselves, that sometime in the past 4 years as they saw themselves falling off the financial cliff that a lot of cities have done ( never even mind the hockey team ) they would have acted on these "new revenue streams" The CoG is shutting down and rotating outages for essential services that cost a fraction of what the AMF costs, and why, because they can't afford them. Again, don't you think if the CoG could keep a fire station open with new-found revenues, they would have already?

And more to the point... why would any city use "new revenue streams" to fatten the AMF while being forced to continue to shutdown the services that really matter? I would think these revenue streams would go to stop from having to close things down.

 

[Llama19]

Im not seeing it nor am I "feeling" it in my gut Kevy.

Killion, I'd trust your 'gut' first, before my own.

Excuse me, is there a way out?

 

[GuelphStormer]

does anyone believe that the Coyotes are still there in a decade, regardless of Gosbee buying the team or not? The NHL has destroyed that market so thoroughly that I can't imagine it could ever really work.

has it? STH sales were up last year. hockey is now played in high schools. local league registration has increased and there are now more indoor rinks there than ever before.

i think there still remains potential in the phoenix market. i dont think anyone has destroyed anything. im just disappointed that we will not get to see the turn-around plan from the only guy I figured had an actual chance - jamison.

 

[Killion]

It'll take several months, close to a year, before the new manager's work shows signs of paying off. National/global tours are booked months in advance, and conventions are booked years in advance.

Oh ya, absolutely. From a dead stop? Youve gotta plant seeds, connect with major booking agencies & promoters, just on & on. That cycle never ending but from basically scratch it'll take months before they start to sporadically fill in empty dates. Even at that, the fact is there just are not a huge number of touring acts even capable of filling a 17,000+ seat venue. Major consumer & trade shows as well, your looking at in some case 2-5yrs pre-planning from location to venue, and, youve got competition with US Airways urban setting, several smaller venues. Its going take experience, know how & savvy to get thejob up to speed, no overnight fix. In some instances you even get into having to provide Guaranteed Performance Fee's, ruthless promoters playing one venue off the other. All kinds of nonsense. Renaissance isnt equipped, they dont have any experience, non of the contacts, would absolutely have to sub-out, be it LiveNation or whomever and that'll cost a pretty penny in and of itself.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

~also HedgeyeDJ has been less than amusing lately, but if people want to put on tin foil hats, he retweeted this:

Amber Kanwar ‏@amberkanwar 3h
Loonie strengthens as Bank of Canada says the next move in rates will be HIGHER #keepittight #hawk #bankofcanada #investing
Retweeted by Daryl Jones

What's tinfoil hat about that?

I have a question: why do people keep predisposing what Glendale citizens want?

It's not predisposing so much as ridiculing. Like how one might ridicule somebody who keeps running up their credit card balance when they can barely make rent.

 

[yotesreign]

It would be even nicer if you got an additional $10 for every time there was a report of '[announcement of a rogue investment group purchasing the team] is coming this week or end of the week or tomorrow or some imminent date'

Definitely. I don't think it would double my money but it'd come close enough I'd take it, for sure.

It's too bad the Renaissance Sports Entertainment Group didn't pick the Rogue Sports & Entertainment Group as their name...

 

[Llama19]

has it? STH sales were up last year. hockey is now played in high schools. local league registration has increased and there are now more indoor rinks there than ever before.

i think there still remains potential in the phoenix market. i dont think anyone has destroyed anything. im just disappointed that we will not get to see the turn-around plan from the only guy I figured had an actual chance - jamison.

2010-11 - Rank - 29; 40 gms; total - 487,543; avg - 12,188; pct - 71.2
2011-12 - Rank - 30; 41 gms; total - 509,241; avg - 12,420; pct - 72.5
2012-13 - Rank - 29; 24 gms; total - 334,165; avg - 13,923; pct - 81.3

Source: http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

Historically, I highly doubt that if there was a full season, the average attendance would have held up.

Excuse me, is there a way out?

 

[Ugmo]

It's not predisposing so much as ridiculing. Like how one might ridicule somebody who keeps running up their credit card balance when they can barely make rent.

His comment makes even less sense when you consider it's the Coyotes we're talking about. Glendale is not Green Bay and the Coyotes are not the Packers. The only time they can ever fill their building is when a more popular team from Canada or the Northeast shows up. It's pretty obvious that people in Glendale care more about the fire department showing up at their house as soon as possible than they do about the Coyotes. Or would, if they cared enough about the Coyotes to even follow this saga and figure out that they're getting ripped off.

Although the Coyotes do have their hard-core fans, no doubt.

 

[Killion]

Killion, I'd trust your 'gut' first, before my own.

I make movies based on gut.
Jerry Bruckheimer

People think I have an interesting walk, what
they dont know is that its to hold in my gut.
Robert Mitchum

... entertainment & sports worlds, all about gut.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Ahhhh, that's why! It's because the team has been a lame duck since 1996? Now it makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

Well, there are several factors that affect attendance. Performance is one of them (for example, the Pittburgh Penguins didn't start having excellent attendance numbers consistently until Lemieux was drafted, while the Flyers had excellent numbers almost immediately and have stayed in that stratosphere since). Lame duck years is another- the Jets, Nordiques and Expos all saw decreases in attendance in their final year. Hartford is an exception because of Karmanos' offer to keep the team in Hartford should 14,000 season tickets be sold. And hockey 'culture' is a third, with teams in well established markets having much more rigidity against the two aforementioned forces.

Other factors include economy, the state and location of arena (this was a big one for the Thrashers) and ownership woes/rebellion (Blackhawks are a good example of this, and indeed are cheered on for such agression towards "Dollar Bill" Wirtz).

Using the attendance numbers found at hockeydb, here are the Phoenix Coyotes' attendance numbers, plus the % capacity of the arena filled:
American Airlines Arena: Capacity, 16210 (with around 3000 of those seats marked as "Obscured")
1996-1997: 15585 (96%)
97-98: 15404 (95%)
98-99: 15547 (96%)
99-00: 14991 (92%)
00-01: 14224 (87%)
01-02: 13165 (81%)
02-03: 13229 (81%)

--MOVE TO GLENDALE
Jobing.com Arena: Capacity, 17125 (and no "Obscured" seats!!)
03-04: 15467 (90%)
04-05: LOCKOUT
05-06: 15582 (91%)
06-07: 14988 (87%)
07-08: 14820 (86%)
08-09: (87%)
--The hearings for bankruptcy began in the Winter and Spring of '08 and '09. The NHL officially assumed ownership of the team in September 2009 (this may be wrong, but I think I have the general date correct)--
09-10: 11989 (70%)
10-11: 12188 (71%)
11-12: 12421 (72%)
12-13: 13924 (81%)

By far the worst years of Phoenix Coyotes attendance was underneath the 'temporary' NHL ownership as they tried and failed and tried and failed and tried again to find an owner for hockey in the desert. Sadly, the team has been pretty competitive during this time, but the constant shedding of talent seems to have finally caught up with them (or maybe OEL will lead them to playoff glory?).

So the team had fairly poor attendance from around '06 to '08, along with the final two years at American Airlines Arena. These numbers conveniently coincide with the years were the hockey team was doing poorly. Until the ownership fuss came about, the numbers were not out of the ordinary with other basement dwelling teams.

So yes, the current attendance woes have to do with the lame duck team and the ownership fiasco as a whole.

You also did an excellent job of sidestepping my original point. Is that an admission of using a broad brush on an entire locale and people?

Why should anyone care how the CoG decides to spend its money? How could anyone possibly know the opinion of the bulk of said constituents, and the amazing coincidence that it coincides with your opinion that the Coyotes should burn?

It's intellectual dishonest. Everyone agrees with me because FIREMEN!!!

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Im not seeing it nor am I "feeling" it in my gut Kevy...

Aye...

Of course, as a Canadian, I would never object to a team being moved to Canada. However, I think Gary Bettman will move hell and high water before relocating a 2nd team north of the 49th. I just don't see it.