Phoenix LXXX: Is there another way out?

[nelina]

I legitimately don't know what to think about this anymore. At first I admired the CoG funding the team until an owner was found. Now that the city hasn't been getting any return on the investment its asinine for the league to expect it to continue. Even if the league was paying rent it would be less than the subsidy the city funneled back.

City funded arenas I get that, been around since the 1930s in one form or another, supporting an ownerless franchise is unique but for an owner to expect the city to continue the escapade is just wrong.
Falls squarely on ownerships shoulders to pay to use the arena, to cover team losses and for the city to benefit from the team.

I hope a deal gets worked out, but I doubt Gosbee has the money to do it, I doubt the CoG is foolish enough to pay for the team after he backs out and I doubt the NHL takes the chance of dealing with a 3rd party arena manager in July.

~also HedgeyeDJ has been less than amusing lately, but if people want to put on tin foil hats, he retweeted this:

Amber Kanwar ‏@amberkanwar 3h
Loonie strengthens as Bank of Canada says the next move in rates will be HIGHER #keepittight #hawk #bankofcanada #investing
Retweeted by Daryl Jones

Well, I don't know who is HedgeyeDJ as I am new guest on this board but affirmation that loonie gets stronger because interest rates are expected to go up is true

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

It's not predisposing so much as ridiculing. Like how one might ridicule somebody who keeps running up their credit card balance when they can barely make rent.

There is a difference between what is fiscally responsible for the CoG and what the citizens of Glendale want.

 

[Ugmo]

Well, there are several factors that affect attendance. Performance is one of them (for example, the Pittburgh Penguins didn't start having excellent attendance numbers consistently until Lemieux was drafted, while the Flyers had excellent numbers almost immediately and have stayed in that stratosphere since). Lame duck years is another- the Jets, Nordiques and Expos all saw decreases in attendance in their final year. Hartford is an exception because of Karmanos' offer to keep the team in Hartford should 14,000 season tickets be sold. And hockey 'culture' is a third, with teams in well established markets having much more rigidity against the two aforementioned forces.

Other factors include economy, the state and location of arena (this was a big one for the Thrashers) and ownership woes/rebellion (Blackhawks are a good example of this, and indeed are cheered on for such agression towards "Dollar Bill" Wirtz).

Using the attendance numbers found at hockeydb, here are the Phoenix Coyotes' attendance numbers, plus the % capacity of the arena filled:
American Airlines Arena: Capacity, 16210 (with around 3000 of those seats marked as "Obscured")
1996-1997: 15585 (96%)
97-98: 15404 (95%)
98-99: 15547 (96%)
99-00: 14991 (92%)
00-01: 14224 (87%)
01-02: 13165 (81%)
02-03: 13229 (81%)

--MOVE TO GLENDALE
Jobing.com Arena: Capacity, 17125 (and no "Obscured" seats!!)
03-04: 15467 (90%)
04-05: LOCKOUT
05-06: 15582 (91%)
06-07: 14988 (87%)
07-08: 14820 (86%)
08-09: (87%)
--The hearings for bankruptcy began in the Winter and Spring of '08 and '09. The NHL officially assumed ownership of the team in September 2009 (this may be wrong, but I think I have the general date correct)--
09-10: 11989 (70%)
10-11: 12188 (71%)
11-12: 12421 (72%)
12-13: 13924 (81%)

By far the worst years of Phoenix Coyotes attendance was underneath the 'temporary' NHL ownership as they tried and failed and tried and failed and tried again to find an owner for hockey in the desert. Sadly, the team has been pretty competitive during this time, but the constant shedding of talent seems to have finally caught up with them (or maybe OEL will lead them to playoff glory?).

So the team had fairly poor attendance from around '06 to '08, along with the final two years at American Airlines Arena. These numbers conveniently coincide with the years were the hockey team was doing poorly. Until the ownership fuss came about, the numbers were not out of the ordinary with other basement dwelling teams.

So yes, the current attendance woes have to do with the lame duck team and the ownership fiasco as a whole.

You also did an excellent job of sidestepping my original point. Is that an admission of using a broad brush on an entire locale and people?

Why should anyone care how the CoG decides to spend its money? How could anyone possibly know the opinion of the bulk of said constituents, and the amazing coincidence that it coincides with your opinion that the Coyotes should burn?

It's intellectual dishonest. Everyone agrees with me because FIREMEN!!!

That looks to me like many seasons of underwhelming attendance by a team that's never made a profit.

I sidestepped your original point because your original point was inane. People possibly care about the Dallas Cowboys or the Boston Red Sox or the Toronto Maple Leafs more than they care about their community having enough police to keep them safe, or sufficient fire service to respond to an incident in a timely manner. But probably not. People definitely do not care more about the Phoenix Coyotes than about safeguarding basic municipal services. Because if they did they'd fill up their arena and make the investment more attractive for a potential owner.

 

[Killion]

Aye... I think Gary Bettman will move hell and high water before relocating a 2nd team north of the 49th. I just don't see it.

My guts not tellin me that either Kevy.... :pillow:

 

[HamiltonFan]

I think it's ridiculous to say the team will stay for another year, Losses could be 30 million and why? Quebec is ready, they may not make money but they won't lose in Quebec.
I admit Friday seems too quick after playing this out but I'd say the true deadline to move this year is June 14.

Ok, I'm up for a good laugh. Is there an actual rationale for this June 14 date, or did you put a blindfold on and point your finger at a calendar?

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

That looks to me like many seasons of underwhelming attendance by a team that's never made a profit.

Their attendance was high 20, low teens when they were making the playoffs consistently. They were filling up the barn at 90%+ capacity. Did you even look at my numbers?

The Coyotes attendance has been bad recently, but it hasn't been at 70%, family and friends level for their entire existence. Only 3 of 17 years was spent at that level. Otherwise, their attendance was not out of whack with other bottom feeders.

I sidestepped your original point because your original point was inane. People possibly care about the Dallas Cowboys or the Boston Red Sox or the Toronto Maple Leafs more than they care about their community having enough police to keep them safe, or sufficient fire service to respond to an incident in a timely manner. But probably not. People definitely do not care more about the Phoenix Coyotes than about safeguarding basic municipal services. Because if they did they'd fill up their arena and make the investment more attractive for a potential owner.

My original point was about posters ascribing opinions to other people whom they have never meet, ascribing opinions to people living in a locale they have never been to, in order to further their own opinions (namely, "I think my area should get a team".) That last bit isn't directed at you, BTW.

Your logic doesn't work. What if they feel they get enough money already? What if they feel that the economic impact of losing to Coyotes will devastate the beautiful area where their arena sits? What if they think all these things, but don't want to put in the emotional or monetary commitment in a team that will leave no matter what they do? What if they think that they have no power over the situation, but would like the team to stay? Or what if they hate the police?

EDIT: Besides, the CoG isn't going to blow up every cop car and firetruck in the city if the Coyotes stay. You can have both!

 

[viper0220]

Is it safe to say that after the Red Wings-Blackhawks, there will be some sort of announcement?

 

[CasualFan]

Why should anyone care how the CoG decides to spend its money? How could anyone possibly know the opinion of the bulk of said constituents, and the amazing coincidence that it coincides with your opinion that the Coyotes should burn?

It's intellectual dishonest. Everyone agrees with me because FIREMEN!!!

I can only speak for myself, I don't care how Glendale spends their money and I don't pretend to know the opinion of any of the citizens. What I find intriguing and discussion worthy is the willingness of the previous city administration to completely misrepresent essentially every economic aspect of the teams existence. Now that's some intellectual dishonesty.

 

[wunderpanda]

What's tinfoil hat about that?

he is part of ownership group trying to buy Coyotes in a bankrupting city simultaneous with rumors of Quebec relocation group and a rising currency.

Few weeks ago he had twitter spat comparing Quebec to Greece, only reason I mentioned it

 

[Donwood]

Ok, I'm up for a good laugh. Is there an actual rationale for this June 14 date, or did you put a blindfold on and point your finger at a calendar?

The final has to end by June 28, No way will there be any back to back nights,
The NHL in the past few years caters to NBC, so the Final would likely start with a Saturday afternoon game June 15, Bettman doesn't want the final overshadowed so if the move can't be made by the end of this week then logically June 14 would be the deadline

 

[HamiltonFan]

No it doesn't. Doug McClean's poorly thought out hypothesis is that the league wants to put pressure on the City of Glendale. Any market will suffice for that... especially a hockey crazed market with a new arena coming online.

What doesn't make sense is the league trying to put pressure on CoG with the threat of a city with no arena, no owner and no pre-existing fanbase.

Edit: Also, the idea that playing nice with Glendale somehow involves telling them their RFP is "silly."

No it won't. Glendale knows that the nhl doesn't want to go to QC. You still don't seem to understand the difference between Canada and the USA in the eyes of the nhl.

 

[JimAnchower]

Is it safe to say that after the Red Wings-Blackhawks, there will be some sort of announcement?

Safe? I wouldn't feel safe predicting what the next thing will be in this fiasco.

 

[Donwood]

No it won't. Glendale knows that the nhl doesn't want to go to QC. You still don't seem to understand the difference between Canada and the USA in the eyes of the nhl.

And what's your proof the NHL doesn't want to go to Quebec and that Glendale has been briefed on Bettmans dislike of Canada?

 

[wsoxfan1214]

No it won't. Glendale knows that the nhl doesn't want to go to QC. You still don't seem to understand the difference between Canada and the USA in the eyes of the nhl.

Enough with the persecution complex. Where is your proof? Definitive proof.

 

[nelina]

he is part of ownership group trying to buy Coyotes in a bankrupting city simultaneous with rumors of Quebec relocation group and a rising currency.

Few weeks ago he had twitter spat comparing Quebec to Greece, only reason I mentioned it

Ok thanks for the precision. As for his comparison to Greece, I can easily figure what is his level of knowledge about global economy !

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

No it won't. Glendale knows that the nhl doesn't want to go to QC. You still don't seem to understand the difference between Canada and the USA in the eyes of the nhl.

People still think that Bettman hates Canada? I thought that the Thrashers to Winnipeg had killed that.

 

[Ugmo]

Their attendance was high 20, low teens when they were making the playoffs consistently. They were filling up the barn at 90%+ capacity. Did you even look at my numbers?

The Coyotes attendance has been bad recently, but it hasn't been at 70%, family and friends level for their entire existence. Only 3 of 17 years was spent at that level. Otherwise, their attendance was not out of whack with other bottom feeders.

The Coyotes have never made money in their entire existence. Either because their attendance hasn't been good enough or their ticket prices have been too low, or - as has been the case recently - their attendance AND their ticket prices are too low. You can try to paint them as a team that's beloved in its community, but there is much greater evidence that most of their community doesn't really care one way or the other about them.

My original point was about posters ascribing opinions to other people whom they have never meet, ascribing opinions to people living in a locale they have never been to, in order to further their own opinions (namely, "I think my area should get a team".) That last bit isn't directed at you, BTW.

Your logic doesn't work. What if they feel they get enough money already? What if they feel that the economic impact of losing to Coyotes will devastate the beautiful area where their arena sits? What if they think all these things, but don't want to put in the emotional or monetary commitment in a team that will leave no matter what they do? What if they think that they have no power over the situation, but would like the team to stay? Or what if they hate the police?

Now you're just being silly. They don't like the cops, so they'd rather give money to the local hockey team? They really care about the hockey team, but rather than attend games, they'd prefer to give it their tax dollars?

There may well be communities in which people like their sports team so much that they are fine with forking over their tax dollars for it. There may even be communities that like their sports team so much that they don't mind their police and fire departments being underfunded as long as the team gets public money. It's a real stretch to believe that Glendale is one of those communities.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

There is a difference between what is fiscally responsible for the CoG and what the citizens of Glendale want.

Now who's predisposing what they want? At any rate they don't appear to want anything. There's just a ton of ambivalence toward the whole episode.

he is part of ownership group trying to buy Coyotes in a bankrupting city simultaneous with rumors of Quebec relocation group and a rising currency.

Few weeks ago he had twitter spat comparing Quebec to Greece, only reason I mentioned it

I think he was just retweeting what is widely anticipated monetary policy.

He's hardly the first to make the comparison of Quebec to Greece.

 

[madhi19]

Is it safe to say that after the Red Wings-Blackhawks, there will be some sort of announcement?

We know soon enough if something is up for Tomorrow at least. After all Garry will either go back home or somewhere else tonight.

 

[thom]

The one question that needs to be answered is which owners support a Quebec City team and which don'-t?

 

[madhi19]

The one question that needs to be answered is which owners support a Quebec City team and which don'-t?

At this point they welcome any port in that storm.

 

[viper0220]

The one question that needs to be answered is which owners support a Quebec City team and which don'-t?

I really don't the owners care thom, they just their profits maximized. They mostly care about the money.

 

[Acesolid]

No it won't. Glendale knows that the nhl doesn't want to go to QC. You still don't seem to understand the difference between Canada and the USA in the eyes of the nhl.

That's ridiculous. The reason Bettman went out of his way against Hamilton is because Mr. Balsillie didn't play by the NHL's rules. And the reason he is so focussed on Pheonix is because the City built an arena for him and it's his Pet Project that he loves irrationally (something way too common in business). And the reason Seattle might be preferred is because the NHL would love to get in bed with a tycoon like Chris Hansen and penetrate a great, huge sports market like Washington State. It has nothing to do with Canada and the USA as political entities. Or with Nationalism or anything of the sort.

Now, Seattle is no longer an option since the whole thing fell appart, and so Bettman is at a crossroad.

A: He can put his carreer and millions in NHL money at a HUGE risk by staying one more year in the fool's hope of selling the team.
B: He can sell to Québec.

There is no other viable option in the very, very short time window left to possibly move the team in time for next season without huge problems.

And if he chooses to stay in Glendale, it wont be because he hates Canada or Québec! But because he loves the Coyotes too much!

 

[Ugmo]

Now who's predisposing what they want? At any rate they don't appear to want anything. There's just a ton of ambivalence toward the whole episode.

I think there is so much apathy that people in Glendale don't even realize funds have been diverted from essential municipal services to the hockey team. Did you see that interview posted earlier on? The one guy says "I'm sure the city council will do what's best for Glendale." That's a guy who hasn't been following this saga at all. My guess is that once the Coyotes are gone (if they leave) and people start to feel the impact of all the subisidies in the form of cuts to other parts of the budget, then people will start to get angry. And the realization will set in that the hockey team is the reason for it.

 

[Killion]

No it won't. Glendale knows that the nhl doesn't want to go to QC. You still don't seem to understand the difference between Canada and the USA in the eyes of the nhl.

.... not buyin that HF. I think they'd "prefer" to have US option's having recently moved one team north of the Border, NBC contract etc. But I dont think its any kind of over-riding factor, far more positive than negative. Indeed QC with its beyond wealthy & influential owner, the additional revenue streams his media outlets will provide likely far surpassing any hit they'd take visa-vie NBC. Good for Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, all the Canadian & Great Lakes teams really, Boston, NY/NJ/LI etc. Clearly though their preference has been to hold the Fort in Glendale, but only provided the City itself steps up to the plate, & as we know theyve' shutdown the free all you can eat buffet.