Blue Jays Discussion: Off-season Edition 5.0 - The Winter Meeting Chronicles

[hockeywiz542]

one industry source believes re-signing michael saunders is at the top of their list of alternatives, although the blue jays have also expressed interest in ben revere and brandon moss. On the trade front, they’d take jay bruce, but right now the new york mets are treating the outfielder as a commodity that can return an asset, not a salary dump.

Bobby wilson, chris iannetta and geovany soto are among the backup catchers they’ve looked at, while jerry blevins, mike dunn and javier lopez are some of the left-handed relievers under consideration, depending on price. oberholtzer, signed to a minor-league deal with a spring invite, will have a chance to compete for a swingman job in the bullpen, while sparkman is a starter coming off tommy john surgery with mid-90s stuff that could also play up in a relief role.

The blue jays by now are well aware of how their list of alternatives to fowler prices out, and now the market has, to a certain extent, dictated their next moves.

 

[no13matssundin]

Just got in to see that Shap/Atkins didn't land Fowler.... so now what? At this point, they `need to EE back now. Period. Bautista would be nice too, but all this sudden talk of Jay Bruce is making me ill. I didn't like Jay Bruce last off season when they were sniffing around him and I sure as heck don't like it even more now.

Honestly, folks, for even the die hard Shap/Atk supporters; Yes. I know I'm a Shap/Atk's hater, but I think even for their supporters it's starting to become pretty clear they've dropped the ball this off-season so far. We've taken a step back.

Maybe they've got something else up their sleeve not named "Jay Bruce"?

I sure hope so. This ain't lookin' good.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I know many wanted Fowler, but I'm going to go ahead now and say that contract is a bullet dodged. 5 years, at that term, at that dollar, to any outfielder entering their thirties is bad news. Always remember good old Carl Crawford, coming off an 8 fWAR season going into his age 30 year and then fell off a cliff. Or Heyward just last year at the tender age of 26-27.

I know there's a whole lot of butt hurt right now, and you don't want to hear it, but this is a good thing.

And it doesn't automatically mean Bruce, so stop over reacting. If I'm the GM, my plan A all along would have been to buy low on a David Peralta. Could also sign Moss and Saunders to very short term, value contracts, and steamer thinks they're very comparable to Fowler in terms of offensive value.

 

[no13matssundin]

I know many wanted Fowler, but I'm going to go ahead now and say that contract is a bullet dodged. 5 years, at that term, at that dollar, to any outfielder entering their thirties is bad news.

I know there's a whole lot of butt hurt right now, and you don't want to hear it, but this is a good thing.

And it doesn't automatically mean Bruce, so stop over reacting. If I'm the GM, my plan A all along would have been to buy low on a David Peralta. Could also sign Moss and Saunders to very short term, value contracts, and steamer thinks they're very comparable to Fowler in terms of offensive value.

The way things are going, Diamond Joe, i'd take you as the GM.

 

[TimeZone]

Good lord that doesn't sound promising.

 

[no13matssundin]

In hindsight, maybe the fact that they've managed to not get who they wanted means EE does come back and Bautista too with a discount? I mean, I'm trying to be optimistic here. Maybe this all turns out great...

 

[Cor]

I'm pretty disappointed in how our off season is going. I had a feeling we were really only going to have 2 seasons of greatness. Our starting rotation is top shelf. But we have so many holes in our line up. I'm worried. I really hope we get a impact player. And for the love of God please get us some smart high average hitters.

Do we really have "so many holes" though?


- We have arguably the best left side of the infield in Donaldson and Tulowitzki.
- Devon Travis is a massive breakout candidate IMO, now that he's able to get a full off-season of training in.
- We had one of the best rotations in the league last year, all are returning. Liriano looked more comfortable as time went on, Stroman should have a better year, and Estrada and Happ are proven veterans.
- Martin is still an above average catcher
- Osuna is a fantastic closer, while Grilli will be a key guy for us. We can use another lefty arm, but bullpen's are a crap-shoot anyway. Just need to hope you can have a couple guys have their career years
- Steve Pearce is going to be a quietly effective player in either LF or 1B.
- Morales is a very good DH, who could hit 30-40 HR's.


So, what are we looking at? A hole in RF, and one in LF/1B, and looking for upgrades for the bullpen?

Shapiro and Atkins have already proven they can find an effective bullpen. They nabbed Biagini in the rule 5, and then grabbed Benoit and Grilli when their teams began to fall out of it. So, the bullpen is hardly an issue.

With the way EE's market has gone, and now that Fowler isn't an option, we very well could see a deal happen there still.



This whole meltdown of "we suck now" is ridiculous.

Encarnacion sucks to lose, but his entire production is made up by Morales and Pearce (I believe, at the very least, it's close).
Bautista was good in the last stretch drive of the year, but was plagued by injuries, and is clearly declining
Benoit is a solid arm, but as I said, Shaprio and Atkins have proven they know how to build a bullpen, both in Cleveland and in Toronto.
Saunders? He was a non-factor post all-star game and playoffs.

Dickey, Thole and Navarro aren't really worth mentioning.

Not too mention, they read the market on Encarnacion perfectly thus far, got Steve Pearce and Kendrys Morales on very solid contracts.

It also seems the door on EE, Bautista or Saunders isn't closed at all.


We are still one of the favorites for the division. No doubt.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

The way things are going, Diamond Joe, i'd take you as the GM.

You would be one of the fans who would dislike the majority of the things I did.

 

[Willy Styles]

Do we really have "so many holes" though?


- We have arguably the best left side of the infield in Donaldson and Tulowitzki.
- Devon Travis is a massive breakout candidate IMO, now that he's able to get a full off-season of training in.
- We had one of the best rotations in the league last year, all are returning. Liriano looked more comfortable as time went on, Stroman should have a better year, and Estrada and Happ are proven veterans.
- Martin is still an above average catcher
- Osuna is a fantastic closer, while Grilli will be a key guy for us. We can use another lefty arm, but bullpen's are a crap-shoot anyway. Just need to hope you can have a couple guys have their career years
- Steve Pearce is going to be a quietly effective player in either LF or 1B.
- Morales is a very good DH, who could hit 30-40 HR's.


So, what are we looking at? A hole in RF, and one in LF/1B, and looking for upgrades for the bullpen?

Shapiro and Atkins have already proven they can find an effective bullpen. They nabbed Biagini in the rule 5, and then grabbed Benoit and Grilli when their teams began to fall out of it. So, the bullpen is hardly an issue.

With the way EE's market has gone, and now that Fowler isn't an option, we very well could see a deal happen there still.



This whole meltdown of "we suck now" is ridiculous.

Encarnacion sucks to lose, but his entire production is made up by Morales and Pearce (I believe, at the very least, it's close).
Bautista was good in the last stretch drive of the year, but was plagued by injuries, and is clearly declining
Benoit is a solid arm, but as I said, Shaprio and Atkins have proven they know how to build a bullpen, both in Cleveland and in Toronto.
Saunders? He was a non-factor post all-star game and playoffs.

Dickey, Thole and Navarro aren't really worth mentioning.


We are still one of the favorites for the division. No doubt.

I like to ask this question to all these Shapiro/Atkins supporters...

Are we better than we were in October? THE ANSWER IS NO, we are significantly worse, whereas all the teams around us are significantly better.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Pillar is arguably the best defensive centre fielder in the AL, and that is enough to justify his average production at the plate. If we lost out on Fowler, it's not the end of the world by any means.

We still have 25 million to spend, and there are other options to fill out the roster.

 

[Discoverer]

The way things are going, Diamond Joe, i'd take you as the GM.

So you would be happy to replace Atkins, who you hate, with someone who's advocating doing things the same way as Atkins?

 

[Rude Dog]

We need the 3 very early picks in the draft. I would prefer not to resign either EE or JB now. We should get a first rate pitching prospect and a couple excellent position players. I know that means less pop in the offence but we did not win with EE and JB and spending on them for multi year contracts is madness longterm.

I was just thinking about that. I completely understand the Jays reluctance to miss out on the first rounders as they won't be there next year. But I wonder if they can sign JB for a year (even though he annoys me to no end), and see how next year plays out. If they are contending ... great. If they are out of it, then look to trade him to a contender. Hopefully he has a rebound year, and they can get multiple prospects who are closer to becoming major leaguers than a draft pick.

Draft picks in baseball aren't exactly guarantees either. How many guys have the Jays drafted over the years, only to not be able to sign them and watch them re-enter the draft.

 

[no13matssundin]

Do we really have "so many holes" though?


- We have arguably the best left side of the infield in Donaldson and Tulowitzki.
- Devon Travis is a massive breakout candidate IMO, now that he's able to get a full off-season of training in.
- We had one of the best rotations in the league last year, all are returning. Liriano looked more comfortable as time went on, Stroman should have a better year, and Estrada and Happ are proven veterans.
- Martin is still an above average catcher
- Osuna is a fantastic closer, while Grilli will be a key guy for us. We can use another lefty arm, but bullpen's are a crap-shoot anyway. Just need to hope you can have a couple guys have their career years
- Steve Pearce is going to be a quietly effective player in either LF or 1B.
- Morales is a very good DH, who could hit 30-40 HR's.


So, what are we looking at? A hole in RF, and one in LF/1B, and looking for upgrades for the bullpen?

Shapiro and Atkins have already proven they can find an effective bullpen. They nabbed Biagini in the rule 5, and then grabbed Benoit and Grilli when their teams began to fall out of it. So, the bullpen is hardly an issue.

With the way EE's market has gone, and now that Fowler isn't an option, we very well could see a deal happen there still.



This whole meltdown of "we suck now" is ridiculous.

Encarnacion sucks to lose, but his entire production is made up by Morales and Pearce (I believe, at the very least, it's close).
Bautista was good in the last stretch drive of the year, but was plagued by injuries, and is clearly declining
Benoit is a solid arm, but as I said, Shaprio and Atkins have proven they know how to build a bullpen, both in Cleveland and in Toronto.
Saunders? He was a non-factor post all-star game and playoffs.

Dickey, Thole and Navarro aren't really worth mentioning.


We are still one of the favorites for the division. No doubt.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, for real... but this is complete and utter crap. The Red Sox at this point are the favorites. They've actually improved their team. So have the Yankees.
We don't "Suck" but we are not better. This is called "reality" and in it we have a GM & President who just got us a big bag of wind at the winter meetings.

We are not favorites. That is wishcasting.

 

[Walshy7]

Do we really have "so many holes" though?


- We have arguably the best left side of the infield in Donaldson and Tulowitzki.
- Devon Travis is a massive breakout candidate IMO, now that he's able to get a full off-season of training in.
- We had one of the best rotations in the league last year, all are returning. Liriano looked more comfortable as time went on, Stroman should have a better year, and Estrada and Happ are proven veterans.
- Martin is still an above average catcher
- Osuna is a fantastic closer, while Grilli will be a key guy for us. We can use another lefty arm, but bullpen's are a crap-shoot anyway. Just need to hope you can have a couple guys have their career years
- Steve Pearce is going to be a quietly effective player in either LF or 1B.
- Morales is a very good DH, who could hit 30-40 HR's.


So, what are we looking at? A hole in RF, and one in LF/1B, and looking for upgrades for the bullpen?

Shapiro and Atkins have already proven they can find an effective bullpen. They nabbed Biagini in the rule 5, and then grabbed Benoit and Grilli when their teams began to fall out of it. So, the bullpen is hardly an issue.

With the way EE's market has gone, and now that Fowler isn't an option, we very well could see a deal happen there still.



This whole meltdown of "we suck now" is ridiculous.

Encarnacion sucks to lose, but his entire production is made up by Morales and Pearce (I believe, at the very least, it's close).
Bautista was good in the last stretch drive of the year, but was plagued by injuries, and is clearly declining
Benoit is a solid arm, but as I said, Shaprio and Atkins have proven they know how to build a bullpen, both in Cleveland and in Toronto.
Saunders? He was a non-factor post all-star game and playoffs.

Dickey, Thole and Navarro aren't really worth mentioning.


We are still one of the favorites for the division. No doubt.

On my phone but I trust liriano I way more than dickey so our great rotation has maybe even improved a little, at least to me I hated when he pitched such crap shoot I really don't like the joke pitch

 

[no13matssundin]

Pillar is arguably the best defensive centre fielder in the AL, and that is enough to justify his average production at the plate. If we lost out on Fowler, it's not the end of the world by any means.

We still have 25 million to spend, and there are other options to fill out the roster.

I agree on this. Pillar is gold. Teach him to hit a little bit better and he'll be ok.

 

[shakes]

Pretty disappointing off season so far. I'm not liking this bargain basement, scrap heap, reclamation project front office. They seem to be ok at it, at least, so I guess there is that. Can wait to see Michael Saunders or Ben Revere patrolling the fearsome Jays outfield. Ridiculous that these two are the top priority for the dynamic duo front office.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Do we really have "so many holes" though?


- We have arguably the best left side of the infield in Donaldson and Tulowitzki.
- Devon Travis is a massive breakout candidate IMO, now that he's able to get a full off-season of training in.
- We had one of the best rotations in the league last year, all are returning. Liriano looked more comfortable as time went on, Stroman should have a better year, and Estrada and Happ are proven veterans.
- Martin is still an above average catcher
- Osuna is a fantastic closer, while Grilli will be a key guy for us. We can use another lefty arm, but bullpen's are a crap-shoot anyway. Just need to hope you can have a couple guys have their career years
- Steve Pearce is going to be a quietly effective player in either LF or 1B.
- Morales is a very good DH, who could hit 30-40 HR's.


So, what are we looking at? A hole in RF, and one in LF/1B, and looking for upgrades for the bullpen?

Shapiro and Atkins have already proven they can find an effective bullpen. They nabbed Biagini in the rule 5, and then grabbed Benoit and Grilli when their teams began to fall out of it. So, the bullpen is hardly an issue.

With the way EE's market has gone, and now that Fowler isn't an option, we very well could see a deal happen there still.



This whole meltdown of "we suck now" is ridiculous.

Encarnacion sucks to lose, but his entire production is made up by Morales and Pearce (I believe, at the very least, it's close).
Bautista was good in the last stretch drive of the year, but was plagued by injuries, and is clearly declining
Benoit is a solid arm, but as I said, Shaprio and Atkins have proven they know how to build a bullpen, both in Cleveland and in Toronto.
Saunders? He was a non-factor post all-star game and playoffs.

Dickey, Thole and Navarro aren't really worth mentioning.

Not too mention, they read the market on Encarnacion perfectly thus far, got Steve Pearce and Kendrys Morales on very solid contracts.

It also seems the door on EE, Bautista or Saunders isn't closed at all.


We are still one of the favorites for the division. No doubt.

Co-signed.

At this rate, we could very well wind up bring back Bautista and Saunders at a significant discount to fill those holes and fit them within the budget.

 

[no13matssundin]

You would be one of the fans who would dislike the majority of the things I did.

I dunno, Joe. While we disagree at times, you some measure of sense... i'm pretty sure you coulda wiggled a litte more cash outta Rogers... didn;t you say you manage billlions? You could make it happen.

#DJQforGM

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

It's amazing how fast this thread can turn into a cesspool. Usually reserved for after playoff losses, during long losing streaks, and in the offseason when any other team acquires any other player. Like clockwork. For years.

Fare thee well.

 

[Cor]

"Everyone around us is getting better!"

Chapman is great, and Holliday is a solid bat, but they haven't touched any of their main issues.

Rays certainly didn't get 31 wins better.

Orioles if anything, got worse.


The Red Sox added an elite pitcher. They upgraded their 1B. They are going to be tough to beat.


Right now it's going to be between the Red Sox and the Jays, unless the Yankees rotation shocks everyone.


So saying the Jays are one of the favorites for the division isn't "utter crap"

 

[shakes]

We are still one of the favorites for the division. No doubt.

This is.... wishful thinking. The Yankees and Red Sox have improved and the Red Sox were better than the Jays last year. The Jays have not improved, lost power and have a Michael Saunders as their top alternative. I would say the Jays are back to their usual 3rd place in the division. They aren't a bad team by any means but it is laughable to think they are favorites in any way. At least not the way the team sits right now and the only reason is because of their starting pitching. Hopefully, none of them regress in 2017.

 

[Cor]

The Yankees have improved!

If you don't know them at all, sure. Chapman is a great closer, but he won't be very effective if their rotation can't prevent the opposition from scoring runs.



As I said, "one of the favorites". Boston/Toronto. One will win the division. Other one will be in the wildcard.

 

[no13matssundin]

"Everyone around us is getting better!"

Chapman is great, and Holliday is a solid bat, but they haven't touched any of their main issues.

Rays certainly didn't get 31 wins better.

Orioles if anything, got worse.


The Red Sox added an elite pitcher. They upgraded their 1B. They are going to be tough to beat.


Right now it's going to be between the Red Sox and the Jays, unless the Yankees rotation shocks everyone.


So saying the Jays are one of the favorites for the division isn't "utter crap"

Again, wasn't trying to be a jerk, so maybe I shouldn't have been so forceful with my words. My bad. I'm just thinking that saying we're favorites is a little premature seeing that we've taken a step back in the batting and relief pitching department. I'd like this to be true. Right now, I just don't think it is.

If they resign EE then I'll change my tune, but missing out on Fowler hurts bigtime and leaves us with a hole.

 

[Rude Dog]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, for real... but this is complete and utter crap. The Red Sox at this point are the favorites. They've actually improved their team. So have the Yankees.
We don't "Suck" but we are not better. This is called "reality" and in it we have a GM & President who just got us a big bag of wind at the winter meetings.

We are not favorites. That is wishcasting.

This is how I feel about Atkins. Right from the first press conference he talk and talks and talks but says nothing. He should be a politician. I love his optimism. But I just don't see any substance. I think Shapiro is a good baseball guy...but appears afraid to take a big risk. Nothing wrong with slow and steady, but it likely puts the Jays back into the 75 - 85 wins a year range...and no October baseball once again.

 

[Cor]

"We didn't get better!"

The fans proclaim months away from Spring Training.



Our seemingly plan A, hasn't even officially signed a deal yet.