Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[Gabriel426]

Marner career playoffs plus 10, Mathews plus 2, William plus 1, JT minus 9.

Marner is the best we have anyway.

He is so great that we won ONE round in 8 yrs.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I think the difference is players become eligible for NMC’s at 25 or 26. So the Marner deal overlapped with 2 of those years eligible whereas Matthews’ deal was one year shorter.

This is where Dubas screwed up by not clearly putting Matthews at the top of the Leafs food chain in every way coming out of his ELC. A condition for giving Marner a 6th year should have been a NMC only in the last season. Otherwise it should have been 5 years like Matthews but no NMC at all.

also remember dreger was the marners puppet mouth .he said marner had 2 potential offer sheets
funny dreger has no info now .
ud think dreger would be negotiating now

And I have have two potential winning lottery tickets.

I think Marner, Matthews, and Nylander all have underperformed, I'm only defending Marner because people are acting like he is by far the worst.

He is by far the worst based on game 5-7 production since 2019.

 

[notbias]

Marner's points/60 go from 12th in the season to 45th in the playoffs. His goals go from 102nd in the season to 205th in the playoffs, just ahead of individuals like Glendening, Matt Martin and Nick Foligno.

He basically turns into a low end 2nd liner, what is a low end 2nd liner worth? Not 11 million dollars, that's what.

57 games is enough sample, he's not a dawg, he's not him and he's gonna wanna a raise, no thanks.

Soft skill wingers can be had relatively easily, big centers not so much, but if your point is that Nylander wasn't great at the start of his career and Matthews has been brutal the last 2 series, I agree, it's just that they're even harder to trade than Marner.

But there is nothing to defend in Marner, he basically turns into the 60th best player in the league come playoff time and a bad part of that is half the teams miss the playoffs so there are guys who would likely bump him even lower.

The 60th best player in the league isn't worth 11 million, not even close and that guy wants a raise? No thank you.

If he loves Toronto so much, why doesn't he sign a 1 or 2 year extension at 1-2 million? Because he doesn't, it's all about the money for him, he can stay if he wants to so badly, but he doesn't and he's not at all some untouchable God, he's closer to a Clarke Macarthur type player than a Connor McDavid type player.

I hope you take discounts at your work so that they can hire more people and succeed.

Points/60... Is Austin Watson as good as Malkin? Amadio is better than McDavid?

Not sure I need to address anything else.

They all choked, Willie is just the tallest of the Hobbit.
I think you are over emphasizing MM defence and at the same time doing the same to Willie’s defence.
It’s funny how you and others defend MM’s lack of scoring as being the playmaker and if only others score on his passes…. But when it comes to Willie and his defence stats, you don’t use the same logic, like if Willie’s linemates played better defence and not daydream and let opposing player skate by them like the Pasta goal in OT, maybe his defence stats will be better.
It works both ways but I have yet to see you and others say the same about Willie.
Also, I don’t understand why you guys need to pull Willie down in order to make MM looks better? MM was horrible the last two series. And Rey said it best regarding his Game 7, he is either injured or uninterested. Since there is not report of him being injured, why was he uninterested in Game 7? That’s unacceptable.
The fact that MM choked under pressure should not be news. MM was thinking about his 100mil extension after Willie’s contract and choked even more than he ever did in the playoffs. That’s why I don’t think his camp will bet on MM coming around next playoffs. The smart thing is to get traded to a non playoff team, get regular season stats and by All Star Game, he will have his 100mil extension. Something that won’t happen in Toronto, as the contract will only come after the playoffs.

This is hard to read and doesn't make much sense to me.

Of course, Nylander playing with Tavares brings down his defensive play slightly.

And when the Marner/Matthews/Hyman line was dominating but couldn't finish, that'd bring down Marner's stats too.

Nylander wasn't great in the last two series either.

I only defend Marner and compare him to Nylander because Nylander is propped up like some great playoff performer and Marner is dragged down like he is the worst playoff performer when Marner has been level with Nylander at the very least and in my opinion ahead of him.

For the 100th time, they have all underperformed by a large margin, the Marner hate recently is just insane.

He is by far the worst based on game 5-7 production since 2019.

But he outproduces Kucherov the playoff king in game 7s, the most important games.

Also, do you have their stats for games 5-7 vs 1-4?

Closing out a series is hard, but winning games at the start helps.

 

[Confucius]

He is so great that we won ONE round in 8 yrs.

I said he is the best WE HAVE…

 

[Gabriel426]

I hope you take discounts at your work so that they can hire more people and succeed.

Points/60... Is Austin Watson as good as Malkin? Amadio is better than McDavid?

Not sure I need to address anything else.



This is hard to read and doesn't make much sense to me.

Of course, Nylander playing with Tavares brings down his defensive play slightly.

And when the Marner/Matthews/Hyman line was dominating but couldn't finish, that'd bring down Marner's stats too.

Nylander wasn't great in the last two series either.

I only defend Marner and compare him to Nylander because Nylander is propped up like some great playoff performer and Marner is dragged down like he is the worst playoff performer when Marner has been level with Nylander at the very least and in my opinion ahead of him.

For the 100th time, they have all underperformed by a large margin, the Marner hate recently is just insane.



But he outproduces Kucherov the playoff king in game 7s, the most important games.

My point is that if you or anyone use the argument that MM lack of goal scoring in playoffs is due to being a playmaker and his linemates can’t finish. Then you can’t blame Willie for his defensive woes bc his linemates failed him.
Willie is never pop up as the savior or a god but he did scored the last THREE goals in the last playoffs and scored more goals than any Leafs the last two series plus more goals than AM, JT and MM combined.
MM is not as the same level as Willie the last two playoffs series. It is not even close.
Also AM, MM and JT all made 50% more than Willie, that’s a fact. Now that will change starting next season.
For the last time, they all choked except for JT bc he just sucks, but a lot of the criticisms on MM is not unwarranted bc he really had not been good.

 

[keonsbitterness]

But he outproduces Kucherov the playoff king in game 7s, the most important games.

Also, do you have their stats for games 5-7 vs 1-4?

Closing out a series is hard, but winning games at the start helps.

You were trying to make Marner look good vs our other players, not Joe Blough on other teams

 

[notbias]

You were trying to make Marner look good vs our other players, not Joe Blough on other teams

I'm just asking for stats, you made a statement about how much worse he was, I'd just like to see for myself, that's all.

Winning in the first 1-4 games is important too, that was my only point about Kucherov... he has 0 points in game 7s but is not known as a choker because he produces and the team plays well around him in deciding games.

 

[Gabriel426]

I said he is the best WE HAVE…

If the best we have can only get ONE series win in 8 years, it means the best we have just not good enough.
Just like if a team best player is a 25 goals and 60pts player. If that team wants to win, they go get better players and would even replace their 25goals 60pts player bc he ain’t good enough.
If you are going to ask, who can replace the great MM….well for 10.893mil, Leafs can sign Marchessault, a 40 goals scorer who always show up in playoffs and I think he was the MVP last playoffs and someone like Pesce who solidified the defense.
MM is just a player who plays for the Leafs.
The logo in the front will always trump the names in the back unless the names in the back won Cups for the logo in the front.

 

[Confucius]

You were trying to make Marner look good vs our other players, not Joe Blough on other teams

On our current roster he has been our best playoff performer. The way to improvement is to start by replacing that guy. Makes sense to most around here. Not me..

 

[Dog]

They should trade him but will they probably not.

 

[Antropovsky]

A real GM tells Marner to F off when he ask for 10.8 AAV.

"We can and we will" Loser GM sure ain't too bright. Not one of Brock U's finest.

You don't let the players boss you around. If Marner wanted overpay money because Babcock hurt his feelings then you let him go.

Dubas had no relationships or connections, therefore he had no pulse on what Marners value was. Marners agent played him to a T. Some of the interviews Dubas did.. you realize how unprepared he was for the role. One interview that stands our was one where he said there was a gm meeting and he went to Shanahan and was like what do I do? And Shanahan said, just take a notepad, say nothing and listen. Also, the fact that he gets Pridham to negotiate contracts him...O'Reilly brought it up in an interview after he signed with Preds and appeared to make fun of how negotiations were with Pridham and not Dubas himself.

 

[notbias]

A real GM tells Marner to F off when he ask for 10.8 AAV.

"We can and we will" Loser GM sure ain't too bright. Not one of Brock U's finest.

You don't let the players boss you around. If Marner wanted overpay money because Babcock hurt his feelings then you let him go.

Exactly!

Insane to pay someone with Marner's numbers 11.5 or 13.25 per year.

Only a loser GM would do something like that.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I'm just asking for stats, you made a statement about how much worse he was, I'd just like to see for myself, that's all.

Winning in the first 1-4 games is important too, that was my only point about Kucherov... he has 0 points in game 7s but is not known as a choker because he produces and the team plays well around him in deciding games.

Someone posted this recently.

They all deserve criticism, they should all produce more, and they should produce in high pressure games by making players around them better instead of always having to depend on players around them. Having said that, there is a clear separation here between Marner and the others.

 

[notbias]

Someone posted this recently.

They all deserve criticism, they should all produce more, and they should produce in high pressure games by making players around them better instead of always having to depend on players around them. Having said that, there is a clear separation here between Marner and the others.

Not great stats, but this also means that Nylander is the least amount of help in games 1-4 and Marner is the most.

You have to win 4 games, our issue has always been that different players step up at different times and it is never coordinated, and until that changes it will be hard to win the series.

I don't see as big of an issue as others that Marner produces great in games 1-4 and poorly in games 5-7, if we had 4 Marners it looks like we'd sweep a lot of series.

 

[Gabriel426]

On our current roster he has been our best playoff performer. The way to improvement is to start by replacing that guy. Makes sense to most around here. Not me..

He is not even close to be our best playoff performer. Honestly, you can’t truly believe that bc even his fan club on this board won’t say he is the best Leafs playoffs performer.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Not great stats, but this also means that Nylander is the least amount of help in games 1-4 and Marner is the most.

You have to win 4 games, our issue has always been that different players step up at different times and it is never coordinated, and until that changes it will be hard to win the series.

I don't see as big of an issue as others that Marner produces great in games 1-4 and poorly in games 5-7, if we had 4 Marners it looks like we'd sweep a lot of series.

Now you're trying way too hard a la Mess.

 

[Gabriel426]

Not great stats, but this also means that Nylander is the least amount of help in games 1-4 and Marner is the most.

You have to win 4 games, our issue has always been that different players step up at different times and it is never coordinated, and until that changes it will be hard to win the series.

I don't see as big of an issue as others that Marner produces great in games 1-4 and poorly in games 5-7, if we had 4 Marners it looks like we'd sweep a lot of series.

You asked for someone to provide stats and you still defend MM to no ends.
Like I said, if MM plays on another team and have the same individual stats in regular season and playoffs and his team enjoy the same faith as the Leafs over the past 8 seasons, would you still have the same opinion?
Like would you want the Leafs to trade for MM with his 10.893mil contract or sign him as UFA for 12milx7yrs?

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

I don’t think the Leafs are going to “corner” Marner. At the end of the day, Marner holds all the cards. Tre will do his job and listen to offers, if there’s a deal that makes sense, he’ll approach Marner to see if he’d waive.

“Cornering” Marner doesn’t make any sense and works against us. There’s no point in playing hardball when Marner holds all the power whether he wants to move or not. Marner should have been moved last year before his NMC kicked in which Shanny should have been fired for for getting to this point.

It'll be nice to actually see him in the corners for once

 

[MSZ]

No team has ever went undefeated in a full 4 round playoff run, teams are going to play game 5s to 7s, not producing in those games is a huge problem.

 

[arso40]

Not great stats, but this also means that Nylander is the least amount of help in games 1-4 and Marner is the most.

You have to win 4 games, our issue has always been that different players step up at different times and it is never coordinated, and until that changes it will be hard to win the series.

I don't see as big of an issue as others that Marner produces great in games 1-4 and poorly in games 5-7, if we had 4 Marners it looks like we'd sweep a lot of series.

Moving the goal posts if I've ever seen it you will always find an angle huh? The tighter the series the worst mitchy plays I'm a mitchy fan but the facts are the facts imagine if he wasn't playing with matthews you think he'd be plus 10/11 imagine willy was you think he'd be plus 1? That's the difference marners not a defensive wizard he's a solid 200 ft player he doesn't move the needle himself willy produces no matter who he plays with that's the difference marner needs someone to score to grab points

 

[notbias]

You asked for someone to provide stats and you still defend MM to no ends.
Like I said, if MM plays on another team and have the same individual stats in regular season and playoffs and his team enjoy the same faith as the Leafs over the past 8 seasons, would you still have the same opinion?
Like would you want the Leafs to trade for MM with his 10.893mil contract or sign him as UFA for 12milx7yrs?

Defense doesn't matter.

The start of a series doesn't matter.

No team has ever went undefeated in a full 4 round playoff run, teams are going to play game 5s to 7s, not producing in those games is a huge problem.

Not producing in games 1-4 is also a problem, that is my only argument.

Now you're trying way too hard a la Mess.

Games 1-4 are also important to winning a series...

 

[Confucius]

He is not even close to be our best playoff performer. Honestly, you can’t truly believe that bc even his fan club on this board won’t say he is the best Leafs playoffs performer.

Plus 10 on a losing team when the next best performer is a plus 2, tells me he has been our best performer

 

[notbias]

Moving the goal posts if I've ever seen it you will always find an angle huh? The tighter the series the worst mitchy plays I'm a mitchy fan but the facts are the facts imagine if he wasn't playing with matthews you think he'd be plus 10/11 imagine willy was you think he'd be plus 1? That's the difference marners not a defensive wizard he's a solid 200 ft player he doesn't move the needle himself willy produces no matter who he plays with that's the difference marner needs someone to score to grab points

Boring... The more open a series is the worse Nylander plays... there are two sides to this argument.

Nylander plays against 2nd lines and can't beat them, that is also an issue.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Are the playoffs still ongoing? Then last year was 2023.

Unless you think he was bad in 2023, in that case.

1 - you didn't watch the playoffs
2 - you watched the playoffs, but your Marner bias is preventing you from understanding what you're watching
3 - you don't understand hockey
4 - you're part of Treliving's camp and pumping his tires here is your job

You think you're being clever, good for you. Marner was OK against TB, just OK. Then he was pretty much useless against Floria, just like he was pretty much useless this spring. If you think he was good ... all I can say is LOL.

Re. this insane #4 of yours, you think I'm pumping Marner's tires?

I think Marner, Matthews, and Nylander all have underperformed, I'm only defending Marner because people are acting like he is by far the worst.

I think Nylander is the worst but it is close, especially based on recent playoffs.

But if Nylander is scoring all these goals but letting in a lot too, the goals become less valuable. To win the game you have to outscore the opponent, and Marner constantly does, Nylander doesn't.

If you think being scored on doesn't matter, I guess there isn't much to talk about.

Now you're just being absurd.

Marner has been so bad, that almost everyone wants him gone. That includes the fans, the media (including knowledgeable ex players like O'Dog) and most importantly, that includes management. But you're somehow still blissfully unaware of what the reality is.

Not great stats, but this also means that Nylander is the least amount of help in games 1-4 and Marner is the most.

You have to win 4 games, our issue has always been that different players step up at different times and it is never coordinated, and until that changes it will be hard to win the series.

I don't see as big of an issue as others that Marner produces great in games 1-4 and poorly in games 5-7, if we had 4 Marners it looks like we'd sweep a lot of series.

Marner's issue has always been that the more pressure there is, the worse he plays. That's why he fades after the first few games, and that's why he was so bad against Florida. I can't even imagine how bad he's likely to be if despite Marner's choking, we somehow made it to round 3.

He is not even close to be our best playoff performer. Honestly, you can’t truly believe that bc even his fan club on this board won’t say he is the best Leafs playoffs performer.

I guess some people will believe anything once the koolaid takes effect. Or maybe he's on Marner's payroll, who knows.

 

[Racer88]

234 pages of debating Marners worth or lack of, but nothing changes the fact that you cannot
, absolutely cannot build a team with this cap allocation. Of course Marner has value but not to any team that already has 3 other soft 11 million plus forwards.
One if not both of Marner or Tavares needs to go. Like it or not Matthews and Willy are locked up.
Reality is both Marner and Tavares will be on the Team next season and we will have to just suck up one more wasted season.