Has Dubas failed at his job?

[The Hanging Jowl]

It’s because this past playoff was the most disheartening letdown yet. I have friends who literally are saying they’re cheering for another team next year, I’ve never seen such disgust and that’s saying something as Leafs fan. And you know what, 100 percent bang on. I’ve always been one to avoid a post game thread after a loss, because it’s just mindless venting, but to the negativity we’re displaying here, full on truth.

I mean some are complaining it’s too negative? Well, the flip side of that is pulling out the same useless stats that never materialize, like the playoff exit in the first round is only part of the story. It’s the ONLY story, this is sport, not a probability computer generated program. On look, we win, expected goals! Geezus. I want banners and a cup, everything else is noise and that’s why people are red with anger over ANOTHER first round exit, nevemind a decent run.

It’s all scorn until they prove something, it’s well earned.

Agreed all around (I have no like button).

 

[myleafs]

So Dubas could very well have made some solid moves right in the nic of time.
Kase,Kampf are unknowns to me but I’m hoping Kampf is a good 4/line center with above average shutdown and penalty killing. Kase i have zero expectations for so if he even plays it’s a bonus.

If Ritchie gets jumped will Matthews help. Will Nylander jump in to help Bunting after Bunting comes to his defense.

No and No

 

[myleafs]

This is the saddest part of criticism toward our team. The fixed mindset that choking is some characteristic and attribute that we can attach to our players. Something that is on / 0ff value in life like in EA Sports NHL series and if it's 0n, then you'll choker. Only way to get rid of that stigma is to trade away that rotten player and let other franchise suffer of choker. No advanced stats or metrics cannot change that, because it's just that if you launch puck in the stands in random event or hit post instead of net, then you're doomed to repeating that. In life it isn't that black and white.

People do learn from their mistakes. It's path of growth and for some players it takes year and for some players years. Our young players have always been under looking glass, even way that player like Crosby never was or McDavid or Yzerman. They came to a team that was playoff contender from first year on. It's harsh environment to make mistakes, that you have to do - to evolve. I'd say Nylander and Matthews have evolved a lot.

I hope some of our fans here don't pass their disbeliefs to their children.

Has Dubas failed? Yes and no, but it's water under bridge now. It's about learning from the past and moving forward. I think past events in any case affect this franchise way too much. Team has it's own burden from past few years and I hope those don't affect our season. Dwelling in the past failures and mistakes usually lead to that fixed mindset. Accept the result, learn from it and move on. You can't change it, only thing you can affect is the future.

You're right but it doesn't mean that everyone will change their stripes or learn from their mistakes (hello Kadri). Some will some won't. At what point do you make that determination...6yrs, 7yrs, 8yrs?

 

[Wafflewhipper]

This team had the third for fewest regulation losses in regular season with only 14 in 56 games. Thats pretty impressive. Then they choke out again in the playoffs for obvious reasons due to lack of team character.

The playoff loss takes nothing away from a quality regular season. Everyone that blasted them was entirely right for that garbage playoff. Now it’s start of a new season where character check is going to be the evaluation thats most important.

There is absolutely no exemption to yellow players. If they don’t have the nards to pick up for themselves it’s a issue. They just all have to play bigger going forward. That is a conditioning attribute for their games that will help them come playoff time.

Do the nasty play all year and the playoffs become just normal. It’s not on Ritchie to fight all the little battles. Ritchie is the hammer if someone gets run etc.( something dirty or a player running around).

This is nothing new to say about their lack of chatacter year in year out.

 

[ULF_55]

There’s a tonne of negativity, but it’s pretty understandable. We’ve got a passionate fanbase, and the team hasn’t won a single playoff series since 2004, 17 years ago. That’s a brutal amount of failure, of course people are going to be down on the team.

This year served this up on a platter.

Absolute collapse against a team that was 18th. in the league.

1 goal combined by Matthews and marner.

Only thing worse would have be zero goals for 21.9 worth of players.

Really a stretch to suggest Dubas was responsible for Matthews and marner's production, but the thread isn't did marner fail, or did Matthews fail so yes I'm not surprised at the tone of this thread or the entire Leafs forum.

Funny thing, might be to look at the players who Dubas is responsible for? Players like Muzzin, Brodie, Kerfoot, Simmonds, Hutton, Foligno, Galchenyuk, ...

 

[ToneDog]

This year served this up on a platter.

Absolute collapse against a team that was 18th. in the league.

1 goal combined by Matthews and marner.

Only thing worse would have be zero goals for 21.9 worth of players.

Really a stretch to suggest Dubas was responsible for Matthews and marner's production, but the thread isn't did marner fail, or did Matthews fail so yes I'm not surprised at the tone of this thread or the entire Leafs forum.

Funny thing, might be to look at the players who Dubas is responsible for? Players like Muzzin, Brodie, Kerfoot, Simmonds, Hutton, Foligno, Galchenyuk, ...

More like 22.527 but who's counting other them them?

 

[myleafs]

Man, I've only been on these forums about 4.5 years but I have never seen so much bickering. Every single thread is nothing but arguments. Not a good read, that's for sure.

I think this indicates I'm not the only one still not feeling it for this coming season because there isn't a single positive thread. The line proposal thread is the closest thing we had to a traditional fun discussion about the coming season yet even that instantly devolved into negativity.

I would say this is happening in all facets of life these days. Masks vs anti masks, vax vs anti vax, right vs left etc. People are losing their ability to listen and learn and to respect others. Disagreeing about something doesn't seem enough anymore. It is often followed by slander and aggression. Everyone feels the need to be heard and will shout down anyone who disagrees with them. I see it more and more everyday and its not a pretty road we are going down as a society.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

No and No

Thats a issue

 

[Gary Nylund]

It’s because this past playoff was the most disheartening letdown yet. I have friends who literally are saying they’re cheering for another team next year, I’ve never seen such disgust and that’s saying something as Leafs fan. And you know what, 100 percent bang on. I’ve always been one to avoid a post game thread after a loss, because it’s just mindless venting, but to the negativity we’re displaying here, full on truth.

I've heard some friends say the same. Not sure how serious they are but it's a sign of disgust for sure. Keep failing in the playoffs and it wouldn't surprise me if the Raptors passed the Leafs in terms of popularity in the not too distant future.

I mean some are complaining it’s too negative? Well, the flip side of that is pulling out the same useless stats that never materialize, like the playoff exit in the first round is only part of the story. It’s the ONLY story, this is sport, not a probability computer generated program. On look, we win, expected goals! Geezus. I want banners and a cup, everything else is noise and that’s why people are red with anger over ANOTHER first round exit, nevemind a decent run.

It’s all scorn until they prove something, it’s well earned.

Very well said.

1. We call regular season stats...."stats".
2. Point out the carpet bombing.

1. We also call playoff stats ... stats and by far the most important stat is the playoffs W/L series stat. 0-5 is the story that matters, not regular season expected this and expected that.
2. It's all there in your posting history, you don't need my permission to look at it.

I would say this is happening in all facets of life these days. Masks vs anti masks, vax vs anti vax, right vs left etc. People are losing their ability to listen and learn and to respect others. Disagreeing about something doesn't seem enough anymore. It is often followed by slander and aggression. Everyone feels the need to be heard and will shout down anyone who disagrees with them. I see it more and more everyday and its not a pretty road we are going down as a society.

Well said. I have some friends in the US who are convinced the election was stolen from Trump who's FB posts I don't look at anymore because the vitriol is so ugly, it's unpleasant to read and there's no reasoning with those people. Their zealotry scares the crap out of me frankly because they are no longer able to think rationally and I know there's millions just like that.

 

[ottomaddox]

This year served this up on a platter.

Absolute collapse against a team that was 18th. in the league.

1 goal combined by Matthews and marner.

Only thing worse would have be zero goals for 21.9 worth of players.

Really a stretch to suggest Dubas was responsible for Matthews and marner's production, but the thread isn't did marner fail, or did Matthews fail so yes I'm not surprised at the tone of this thread or the entire Leafs forum.

Funny thing, might be to look at the players who Dubas is responsible for? Players like Muzzin, Brodie, Kerfoot, Simmonds, Hutton, Foligno, Galchenyuk, ...

Yikes. Not great either. Hutton? I wish we actually got to see him play hockey for TOR in the playoffs.

 

[myleafs]

Yikes. Not great either. Hutton? I wish we actually got to see him play hockey for TOR in the playoffs.

On one of his first shifts he slammed someone into the boards and I was thinking wow that was nice to see and he quickly was stapled to the bench then scratched. With what the habs were bringing I would have liked to have seen Hutton get a few shifts.

 

[fahad203]

On one of his first shifts he slammed someone into the boards and I was thinking wow that was nice to see and he quickly was stapled to the bench then scratched. With what the habs were bringing I would have liked to have seen Hutton get a few shifts.

Didn't Hutton leave the team for personal reasons ?

 

[al secord]

I have never seen Ben Hutton play, yet i wish to had seen him in the playoffs. Sounds aboot right.

 

[Maple Leaf]

60% correct

 

[myleafs]

Didn't Hutton leave the team for personal reasons ?

I looked for something to say that but didn't find anything but maybe he did?

 

[PromisedLand]

It’s because this past playoff was the most disheartening letdown yet. I have friends who literally are saying they’re cheering for another team next year, I’ve never seen such disgust and that’s saying something as Leafs fan. And you know what, 100 percent bang on. I’ve always been one to avoid a post game thread after a loss, because it’s just mindless venting, but to the negativity we’re displaying here, full on truth.

I mean some are complaining it’s too negative? Well, the flip side of that is pulling out the same useless stats that never materialize, like the playoff exit in the first round is only part of the story. It’s the ONLY story, this is sport, not a probability computer generated program. On look, we win, expected goals! Geezus. I want banners and a cup, everything else is noise and that’s why people are red with anger over ANOTHER first round exit, nevemind a decent run.

It’s all scorn until they prove something, it’s well earned.

Some of the folks I know checked out the day montreal colours were shining on the CN Tower. Never have they been so disgusted by a Leafs team and their GM.

The amount of embarrassing stories under dubas that I haven't seen under any previous management are quite a bit.

- Sparks fiasco
- Firing Babcock but not having the brass to do it himself; asking shanahan to do it
- getting shutdown completely by CBJ
- getting embarrassed by montreal while trading away the picks for hardly used... Rittich, Hutton, Foligno, Riley Nash
- Hiring a rookie coach
- montreal colours on CN Tower
- bloated contracts
- calling fans stupid/morons when they called out marner
- players' attitude.... (marner's attitude after playoffs ended)
- UFAs walk
- Hyman walked without returning anything; Rielly probably does the same thing
- Losing to AHL Zamboni driver
- etc....


Heck I watched Leafs hockey even under Horachek era.... For the first time in years I have made plans during the hockey season without considering Leafs schedule and I know other people who have done the same thing.

Toronto Maple Leafs logo used to mean something more than the players' name on the back. Even during Pat Quinn era when Leafs were trying to make runs with Sundin and co. The Maple Leaf logo meant a lot more than the name of the player on the back.

A lot of the people have checked out. I hardly even post anymore on the Leafs thread because it is baffling and tiresome for me to look at the pro-dubas crowd defend him without even sparing a single thought as to the situation where dubas had walked in... team on the rise and plenty of cap space. I have never seen a professional sports team do a 180 so quickly from that situation as the team did under dubas.

Shanahan is the guy to be blamed more for letting it happen and still continues to let it happen; especially after he himself had said that "we expect our young leaders to take discounts to keep the team together".

 

[Racer88]

Well thought out and well said.
The problem becomes how do they fix it? What domino falls first?
Just doing the same ridiculous things will not make any difference.
I think the time for any major lineup shake up is over for this year.
Probably the only thing of any consequence could be to get rid of Keefe.
He has shown a real lack of ability to fix a disaster of a PP, he has shown and unwillingness to try to get his struggling high paid players away from better opposition in the playoffs. Marner has repeatedly said that he himself was not ready or engaged to start a playoff game yet nothing was done about it.
Kadri was late for a practice and was ripped by the coach and management but Marner escapes all consequences.
Failing to do a coaching upgrade and to be honest I do think it is to late for that this year I guess we should all buckle up because it’s going to be a rough year

Never have the Leafs has as much raw talent in 4 forward but been as dysfunctional and disorganized.

 

[Dekes For Days]

- Sparks fiasco
- Firing Babcock but not having the brass to do it himself; asking shanahan to do it
- getting shutdown completely by CBJ
- getting embarrassed by montreal while trading away the picks for hardly used... Rittich, Hutton, Foligno, Riley Nash
- Hiring a rookie coach
- montreal colours on CN Tower
- bloated contracts
- calling fans stupid/morons when they called out marner
- players' attitude.... (marner's attitude after playoffs ended)
- UFAs walk
- Hyman walked without returning anything; Rielly probably does the same thing
- Losing to AHL Zamboni driver

-Backup goalie earns chance, does mediocre and gets traded away.
-Coach getting horrible results gets fired by his team.
-Outplay and outscore but while experiencing significant injuries to core players, lose a couple playoff series in the maximum number of games to teams getting some of the best goaltending in the playoffs.
-Competitive team acquires rentals.
-Team promotes a qualified coach to the NHL, after dominating at every lower level, and winning a Calder Cup, resulting in immediate improvement in the NHL team.
-Canadian city does things with their building, all on their own.
-Reasonable contracts are signed, and cap anchors are completely avoided.
-GM defends his best players from hateful, inaccurate comments.
-No attitude issues among players.
-Complimentary players are added and removed in free agency.
-Unsubstantiated speculation about the future.
-Score multiple goals on their long-time practice goalie in less than half a game, but are unable to complete the comeback against a quality NHL team putting up an excellent defensive performance.

These things are not nearly as unusual, uncommon, or unacceptable as you make them out to be.

 

[Mess]

This year served this up on a platter.

Absolute collapse against a team that was 18th. in the league.

1 goal combined by Matthews and marner.

Only thing worse would have be zero goals for 21.9 worth of players.

Really a stretch to suggest Dubas was responsible for Matthews and marner's production, but the thread isn't did marner fail, or did Matthews fail so yes I'm not surprised at the tone of this thread or the entire Leafs forum.

Funny thing, might be to look at the players who Dubas is responsible for? Players like Muzzin, Brodie, Kerfoot, Simmonds, Hutton, Foligno, Galchenyuk, ...

Dubas is responsible for Matthews and Marner's remuneration and cap usage so when they fail it reflects poorly on the one that gave them those contracts in terms of overpaid, bang for cap buck return and that impacts the rest of the team composition around them, when you have a limited amount to spend on the rest of the team. Like you said that $21.9 mil was handed out to them by someone.

So its not only about who that manager hired but also how much he also decided to pay the ones he already inherited as well that impacts the results of the team, by which he is ultimately responsible for and job performance evaluated on.

If a manager hires an employee and that employee under-performs expectation, a manger needs to address that, even if its the employee that is at fault, as that reflects back on him and his evaluation.

No GM would ever be replaced if one can simply point the finger of guilt at the employees, who are the ones doing the actions leading the end the results.

Every single player on the team that has the GM's signature on the bottom of their player contract, is the responsibility of the GM to answer for. In Toronto only Morgan Rielly is the only Leaf who negotiated his contract under a former GM, so everybody else that got steep pay raises or new contracts are now the accountability of the current GM. IMO

 

[Leafs87]

Failed at his job mainly yes. The contracts he gave out kinda cemented his legacy. He could never build a proper team around those.
The things that happened around him also did not help though. The contracts he signed were based on the thought that the cap was going to be 100+ because of new TV deals. Then COVID happened right after signing those deals

 

[ULF_55]

Dubas is responsible for Matthews and Marner's remuneration and cap usage so when they fail it reflects poorly on the one that gave them those contracts in terms of overpaid, bang for cap buck return and that impacts the rest of the team composition around them, when you have a limited amount to spend on the rest of the team. Like you said that $21.9 mil was handed out to them by someone.

So its not only about who that manager hired but also how much he also decided to pay the ones he already inherited as well that impacts the results of the team, by which he is ultimately responsible for and job performance evaluated on.

If a manager hires an employee and that employee under-performs expectation, a manger needs to address that, even if its the employee that is at fault, as that reflects back on him and his evaluation.

No GM would ever be replaced if one can simply point the finger of guilt at the employees, who are the ones doing the actions leading the end the results.

Every single player on the team that has the GM's signature on the bottom of their player contract, is the responsibility of the GM to answer for. In Toronto only Morgan Rielly is the only Leaf who negotiated his contract under a former GM, so everybody else that got steep pay raises or new contracts are now the accountability of the current GM. IMO

True but do you think they are overpaid and overrated?

While Dubas signed the contracts, do we think they would have been better served by letting them sit out a year, or accepting the 4 1st. round picks for marner from the BJ's?

I'm not sure if Matthews signed for 8 years, and marner signed for Draisaitl money they would have been better in the playoffs?

Would having another 2 million to pay for another player (marner overpayment) been the difference in the series against Montreal? And even is yes, it would have been 1 goal for $20 million instead of $22 million.

At this point, we don't know if the top end talent on the team can perform in the playoffs, overpaid or not.

 

[zeke]

Dubas is responsible for Matthews and Marner's remuneration and cap usage so when they fail it reflects poorly on the one that gave them those contracts in terms of overpaid, bang for cap buck return and that impacts the rest of the team composition around them, when you have a limited amount to spend on the rest of the team. Like you said that $21.9 mil was handed out to them by someone.

So its not only about who that manager hired but also how much he also decided to pay the ones he already inherited as well that impacts the results of the team, by which he is ultimately responsible for and job performance evaluated on.

If a manager hires an employee and that employee under-performs expectation, a manger needs to address that, even if its the employee that is at fault, as that reflects back on him and his evaluation.

No GM would ever be replaced if one can simply point the finger of guilt at the employees, who are the ones doing the actions leading the end the results.

Every single player on the team that has the GM's signature on the bottom of their player contract, is the responsibility of the GM to answer for. In Toronto only Morgan Rielly is the only Leaf who negotiated his contract under a former GM, so everybody else that got steep pay raises or new contracts are now the accountability of the current GM. IMO

Do you think these contracts are amongst the worst contracts in the League?

 

[ottomaddox]

Do you think these contracts are amongst the worst contracts in the League?

Not really. If you consider their Regular Season results Marner and Matthews seem good. When you consider lack of playoff results their contracts become questionable to fans. A lot of these resent threads have to do with a 1st round playoff loss to MTL in which Toronto was up 3-1 in the series. Both M & M got shutdown pretty good during that series.

 

[notbias]

Not really. If you consider their Regular Season results Marner and Matthews seem good. When you consider lack of playoff results their contracts become questionable to fans. A lot of these resent threads have to do with a 1st round playoff loss to MTL in which Toronto was up 3-1 in the series. Both M & M got shutdown pretty good during that series.

If we are factoring in playoffs, McDavid has to have one of the worst contracts in the league.

 

[Racer88]

If we are factoring in playoffs, McDavid has to have one of the worst contracts in the league.

If he hasn’t been able to perform in the playoffs then ya it probably is one of the worst