Do you think that means the oddsmakers believe the the Leafs have the 4th best chance of winning?
Has Dubas failed at his job?
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Do you think that means the oddsmakers believe the the Leafs have the 4th best chance of winning?
keonsbitterness
Registered User
138 no votes…
How has he not failed to date? And how many more franchise staining collapses will it take to convince those otherwise?
How has he not failed to date? And how many more franchise staining collapses will it take to convince those otherwise?
Your mentality is considered a failure in my books. Content with being a total loser franchise that folds year after year all because Vegas with their jackshit knowledge of hockey says we’re fourth best. But maybe you just like being a loser, who knows.
I remember you from the playoffs though. You kept saying the Leafs would close out the series. How’d those predictions go for you?
zeke
The Dube Abides
- Mar 14, 2005
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Sounds like a great opportunity for you, with all your hockey knowledge, to make lots of money.
Wafflewhipper
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2014
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I criticized the heck out of Dubas and i call him kraft Dinner. I say he thinks he’s smarter than the game. I blast his “program” of skilled soft teams after supposedly mentoring off of Lou Lam. What else..... I hated the Kadri trade. I mock him for protecting Kerfoot but i really like Kerfoots work ethic. Costs us assets to get McCann to expose to save the losing the Kerfoot contract is as much or as more over valued as Marner’s or Matthews. He put all of our stars right in to UFA with these 5 and 6 year deals with potential of losing any given one of them for circumstances unforeseen.
I’m sure there is more on the negatives but his biggest mistake was constructing a perennially soft mentally and physically playoff roster.
I voted he is not a failure because he made what i consider 4 good moves this off season with regards to additions and 5 if we can count allowing Andersen to walk.
The moves i like in order of my perception of best on down are Ritchie,Mrazek,Bunting and Gabriel. All four of these guys have more attitude in their demeanour than the entire team of last year excluding Simmons. I like Gabriel i know he’s no star hut if he plays a smart game with no sideshow to it and just does his job, he will be a fan favourite in probably not very long. That means defensively responsible firstly,physical moderately and physical aggressively when he see’s someone running around that needs to be tuned. I know he’s no star and i like Brooksie ( who i hope gets games also). but I’d keep Gabriel around to be the henchman.
So Dubas could very well have made some solid moves right in the nic of time.
Kase,Kampf are unknowns to me but I’m hoping Kampf is a good 4/line center with above average shutdown and penalty killing. Kase i have zero expectations for so if he even plays it’s a bonus.
If they bump Gabriel to the Marlies and think that Ritchie and Bunting bring enough attitude to the room and on the ice it’s a different story. This team needs some onery elements. Simmonds was all talk last year and if he bring it up a notch in ornery all the better too.
I’m really hoping all these guys put our yellow players in uncomfortable situations we can get to evaluate their courage on. If Ritchie gets jumped will Matthews help. Will Nylander jump in to help Bunting after Bunting comes to his defense. I want to see the trouble makers make trouble to see how our team reacts, not how the other team reacts.
So that’s my best explanation of what i think can be evaluated with the new additions of character guys to the lineup.
I sure hope these guys play the game the right way as they like to say. They’ve never played the right way in their careers as Leafs until they show they are willing to get their nose dirty a bit. There is no skill evaluating to do with the team now,we know they are skilled. It’s character check time now.
I’m sure there is more on the negatives but his biggest mistake was constructing a perennially soft mentally and physically playoff roster.
I voted he is not a failure because he made what i consider 4 good moves this off season with regards to additions and 5 if we can count allowing Andersen to walk.
The moves i like in order of my perception of best on down are Ritchie,Mrazek,Bunting and Gabriel. All four of these guys have more attitude in their demeanour than the entire team of last year excluding Simmons. I like Gabriel i know he’s no star hut if he plays a smart game with no sideshow to it and just does his job, he will be a fan favourite in probably not very long. That means defensively responsible firstly,physical moderately and physical aggressively when he see’s someone running around that needs to be tuned. I know he’s no star and i like Brooksie ( who i hope gets games also). but I’d keep Gabriel around to be the henchman.
So Dubas could very well have made some solid moves right in the nic of time.
Kase,Kampf are unknowns to me but I’m hoping Kampf is a good 4/line center with above average shutdown and penalty killing. Kase i have zero expectations for so if he even plays it’s a bonus.
If they bump Gabriel to the Marlies and think that Ritchie and Bunting bring enough attitude to the room and on the ice it’s a different story. This team needs some onery elements. Simmonds was all talk last year and if he bring it up a notch in ornery all the better too.
I’m really hoping all these guys put our yellow players in uncomfortable situations we can get to evaluate their courage on. If Ritchie gets jumped will Matthews help. Will Nylander jump in to help Bunting after Bunting comes to his defense. I want to see the trouble makers make trouble to see how our team reacts, not how the other team reacts.
So that’s my best explanation of what i think can be evaluated with the new additions of character guys to the lineup.
I sure hope these guys play the game the right way as they like to say. They’ve never played the right way in their careers as Leafs until they show they are willing to get their nose dirty a bit. There is no skill evaluating to do with the team now,we know they are skilled. It’s character check time now.
Mess
Global Moderator
I'm sure a lot of Leaf fans that dropped their Vegas bets on Toronto last year, are the ones that helped in part pay out my winning Tampa Bay Lightning bet ticket.
My faith in Dubas and my Leafs under his direction has rewarded me with a new set of golf clubs, and paid for my yearly membership fee on the golf links this summer. I figure if MLSE refuses to fix my Leafs, at least I can fix my swing and if I can't fix my swing then a new set of clubs should help mask my own deficiencies.
However for the first time I did lower my own realism guard and dropped $250 in Vegas on my Leafs, believing a Final 4 or Bust was Leafs floor based on the new pandemic Div and gifted an easier path to success, so I couldn't resits hedging my overall bet just a little, when usually I go all in on just 1 team. So I guess you can say I had a part in paying for my new driver myself, but the rest of the set is all thanks to Dubas.
Vegas can set their odds on the Leafs anywhere they like this year, but its certainly not safe money, and in fact moving back to the Atlantic and with just some minor tweaks around the edges with bargain shopping additions should have realistically lowered the Leafs odds as QofC increases, but Vegas needs a lot of investment in optimism to eventually pay out on realism. After all they're trying to run a profitable business and nobody can fault them for that.
Money can't buy you success as our Leafs are finding out the hard way simply by paying out on the biggest player contracts, but money if spent wisely can still bring one success, and profit from the situation.
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Gary Nylund
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2013
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What arguments doesn't matter. You and I have agreed many times so if everything I've ever said was wrong, they it follows that you would have also been wrong. Pretty simple stuff.
Like I said, ask and I will answer. That doesn't mean I'm willing to complete homework assignments for you that involve complex analysis involving other teams or GM's from the past or other irrelevant stuff.
What criticisms of the the Leafs have I made that you don't agree with? If there's something you don't agree with then I'll be happy to explain/justify my position, all you have to do is ask. If you have a question then go ahead and ask it. If you don't have any questions, then stop whining about how I never answer your questions.
You said that they are choking dogs. Present tense, not past tense. I called you on this nonsense, now you're changing what you said.
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Its not your fault
Registered User
- Nov 24, 2016
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If only one team wins a year I would say 30 GMs fail every year at their job. Now how many failed GMs a year across all of sports. Guess he's in good company and rather inline with the law of averages.
zeke
The Dube Abides
- Mar 14, 2005
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Without you providing me with the info, I can't answer your question.
[QuoteA]Like I said, ask and I will answer. That doesn't mean I'm willing to complete homework assignments for you that involve complex analysis involving other teams or GM's from the past or other irrelevant stuff.
What criticisms of the the Leafs have I made that you don't agree with? If there's something you don't agree with then I'll be happy to explain/justify my position, all you have to do is ask. If you have a question then go ahead and ask it. If you don't have any questions, then stop whining about how I never answer your questions.[/quote]
Honestly I don't even remember now or care enough to try - I just remember you running away as fast as you could from every question I've asked. And I'm sure next time I ask you a question into the context of a discussion I'm sure you'll run away again. I think the last one was about whether you still considered Colorado elite despite flopping in the 2nd round every year (and beating no team of note in round 1 either). You got all upset and refused to answer.
[QUOTEa]You said that they are choking dogs. Present tense, not past tense. I called you on this nonsense, now you're changing what you said.[/QUOTE]
I don't trust your half remembered paraphrases.
But it doesn't really matter - so far they have been choking dogs in the playoffs. I'm not sure why this upsets you - you're the one that wants to trade them for this very reason.
Myself? I don't think choking is a skill or a permanent condition, and 32gms of poor results with good underlying results isn't nowhere near enough to convince me it is. So yes, I have no problem calling them choking dogs so far, and still preferring to bet again on their proven and obvious elite skill, something which is actually a reliably real thing.
I hope you now understand the answer to your question.
2 Slick
Registered User
Yes, he has failed miserably. Dubas loves giving out draft picks like they were candy. Horrible GM.
deprw
Registered User
- Mar 7, 2010
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This is the saddest part of criticism toward our team. The fixed mindset that choking is some characteristic and attribute that we can attach to our players. Something that is on / 0ff value in life like in EA Sports NHL series and if it's 0n, then you'll choker. Only way to get rid of that stigma is to trade away that rotten player and let other franchise suffer of choker. No advanced stats or metrics cannot change that, because it's just that if you launch puck in the stands in random event or hit post instead of net, then you're doomed to repeating that. In life it isn't that black and white.
People do learn from their mistakes. It's path of growth and for some players it takes year and for some players years. Our young players have always been under looking glass, even way that player like Crosby never was or McDavid or Yzerman. They came to a team that was playoff contender from first year on. It's harsh environment to make mistakes, that you have to do - to evolve. I'd say Nylander and Matthews have evolved a lot.
I hope some of our fans here don't pass their disbeliefs to their children.
Has Dubas failed? Yes and no, but it's water under bridge now. It's about learning from the past and moving forward. I think past events in any case affect this franchise way too much. Team has it's own burden from past few years and I hope those don't affect our season. Dwelling in the past failures and mistakes usually lead to that fixed mindset. Accept the result, learn from it and move on. You can't change it, only thing you can affect is the future.
Geez.
Happens all the time.
Especially in the playoffs.
You may not have noticed if you only watch the Super Scared Soft Leafs.
Hockey is still a contact sport , much to the chagrin of some.
kb
Registered User
- Aug 28, 2009
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ottomaddox
Registered User
Dubas has been GM for 4 drafts. That would normally give him 28 draft picks. Dubas has drafted 30 times as GM, and improved our pipeline quite a bit.
The Hanging Jowl
Registered User
- Apr 2, 2017
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Man, I've only been on these forums about 4.5 years but I have never seen so much bickering. Every single thread is nothing but arguments. Not a good read, that's for sure.
I think this indicates I'm not the only one still not feeling it for this coming season because there isn't a single positive thread. The line proposal thread is the closest thing we had to a traditional fun discussion about the coming season yet even that instantly devolved into negativity.
I think this indicates I'm not the only one still not feeling it for this coming season because there isn't a single positive thread. The line proposal thread is the closest thing we had to a traditional fun discussion about the coming season yet even that instantly devolved into negativity.
There’s a tonne of negativity, but it’s pretty understandable. We’ve got a passionate fanbase, and the team hasn’t won a single playoff series since 2004, 17 years ago. That’s a brutal amount of failure, of course people are going to be down on the team.
Gary Nylund
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2013
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Zeke:
You somehow got the quotes all messed up in your post so I'll just respond here.
You said that our stars "are choking dogs" (present tense). That was a ridiculous statement which I called you on, now you're finally responding weeks later and you've changed it to "they choked" which is vastly different from what you said before.
You say:
I'm not sure why this upsets you - you're the one that wants to trade them for this very reason.
So few words, so many lies. Firstly, I don't want to "trade them". I would like trade Marner and Marner only. And the reason has nothing to do with "choking", I've explained my reasoning for why trading Marner is an option we should explore several times already. Since you just ignore what I say and make up your own stories, I don't see the point in going over all of it at this point but at least get this much through your head - I don't want to "trade them". As far as being upset goes, you're the one who seems upset and I've already told you that calling our players "choking dogs" shows a lack of class on your part. And I don't it's accurate to label any player "a choker" which is why I called you out in the first place. And it's also wrong to label them as a group. Each player is different and my problem with Marner is that he has had several poor playoffs in a row, that can't be said about the others. If you can't differentiate between "our stars" then perhaps you're letting your emotions get in the way of common sense.
I agree. If people want to say that our players choked, I can't argue with that. Dominated in series deciding games 4 years in a row, it's understandable that people would use that term. To say that they "are choking dogs" the way Zeke did (and the way some others are saying), well I just can't agree with that.
I'd agree with that, I just wish we could say the same for Marner. That's the biggest question for me with this team - will Marner evolve into the player we need him to be and the player we're paying him to be? Maybe he will and maybe he won't, there's no guarantee either way. I'm no hockey historian but I suspect if we made a list of players who excelled during the regular season and then fell flat on their face in the playoffs three years in a row, it would be a short list. A big chunk of our cap goes to Marner, if he doesn't figure it out then we're screwed.
Agreed. Posing this question in a yes/no form makes no sense. Like anyone, he's made some good moves and he's made some bad moves. The biggest mistakes he's made IMHO are the Marner contract, trading away futures at the last TDL and stubbornly sticking with this core this summer when trading Marner seems like such a logical move. Not even considering this option makes me wonder if he's not too attached to his players and if he is, that's a HUGE problem. I like most of the trades he's made, even the Kadri trade was fine I think though a ton of people think it was dumb. The big problem is that in the end, the playoffs have been a big disappointment and eventually, the buck stops with the guy that assembled the team. If we break through next playoffs and go to the final, all his mistakes will be forgiven and perhaps won't even be considered mistakes any more. One more gross failure though and he's quite possibly looking for a new job.
The last few years have drilled home the point that the regular season doesn't matter much so hard to get too excited TBH. And the bickering has been here for as long as I remember, the worst have been threads pitting our own players against each other like Kadri vs Bozak, Reimer vs Bernier etc. I have always supported all our players and I expect I always will. I'm more disappointed in Marner then I have been in any of our players maybe ever, but when the playoffs start I'll be pulling for him hard. And I don't care if he puts up 150 points next season, I will judge him and everyone else on the team by how they do in the playoffs.
You somehow got the quotes all messed up in your post so I'll just respond here.
You said that our stars "are choking dogs" (present tense). That was a ridiculous statement which I called you on, now you're finally responding weeks later and you've changed it to "they choked" which is vastly different from what you said before.
You say:
I'm not sure why this upsets you - you're the one that wants to trade them for this very reason.
So few words, so many lies. Firstly, I don't want to "trade them". I would like trade Marner and Marner only. And the reason has nothing to do with "choking", I've explained my reasoning for why trading Marner is an option we should explore several times already. Since you just ignore what I say and make up your own stories, I don't see the point in going over all of it at this point but at least get this much through your head - I don't want to "trade them". As far as being upset goes, you're the one who seems upset and I've already told you that calling our players "choking dogs" shows a lack of class on your part. And I don't it's accurate to label any player "a choker" which is why I called you out in the first place. And it's also wrong to label them as a group. Each player is different and my problem with Marner is that he has had several poor playoffs in a row, that can't be said about the others. If you can't differentiate between "our stars" then perhaps you're letting your emotions get in the way of common sense.
I agree. If people want to say that our players choked, I can't argue with that. Dominated in series deciding games 4 years in a row, it's understandable that people would use that term. To say that they "are choking dogs" the way Zeke did (and the way some others are saying), well I just can't agree with that.
I'd agree with that, I just wish we could say the same for Marner. That's the biggest question for me with this team - will Marner evolve into the player we need him to be and the player we're paying him to be? Maybe he will and maybe he won't, there's no guarantee either way. I'm no hockey historian but I suspect if we made a list of players who excelled during the regular season and then fell flat on their face in the playoffs three years in a row, it would be a short list. A big chunk of our cap goes to Marner, if he doesn't figure it out then we're screwed.
Agreed. Posing this question in a yes/no form makes no sense. Like anyone, he's made some good moves and he's made some bad moves. The biggest mistakes he's made IMHO are the Marner contract, trading away futures at the last TDL and stubbornly sticking with this core this summer when trading Marner seems like such a logical move. Not even considering this option makes me wonder if he's not too attached to his players and if he is, that's a HUGE problem. I like most of the trades he's made, even the Kadri trade was fine I think though a ton of people think it was dumb. The big problem is that in the end, the playoffs have been a big disappointment and eventually, the buck stops with the guy that assembled the team. If we break through next playoffs and go to the final, all his mistakes will be forgiven and perhaps won't even be considered mistakes any more. One more gross failure though and he's quite possibly looking for a new job.
The last few years have drilled home the point that the regular season doesn't matter much so hard to get too excited TBH. And the bickering has been here for as long as I remember, the worst have been threads pitting our own players against each other like Kadri vs Bozak, Reimer vs Bernier etc. I have always supported all our players and I expect I always will. I'm more disappointed in Marner then I have been in any of our players maybe ever, but when the playoffs start I'll be pulling for him hard. And I don't care if he puts up 150 points next season, I will judge him and everyone else on the team by how they do in the playoffs.
Gary Nylund
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- Oct 10, 2013
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It would help a bit if you stopped carpet bombing every thread with a bunch of regular season stats to back your contention that this is an "elite team". I think that's why people feel the need to remind you - most people care more about the playoffs than they care about the regular season and as long as they keep playing poorly in the playoffs, calling them an elite team is nothing more then a bad joke.
DarkKnight
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- Jan 17, 2017
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It’s because this past playoff was the most disheartening letdown yet. I have friends who literally are saying they’re cheering for another team next year, I’ve never seen such disgust and that’s saying something as Leafs fan. And you know what, 100 percent bang on. I’ve always been one to avoid a post game thread after a loss, because it’s just mindless venting, but to the negativity we’re displaying here, full on truth.
I mean some are complaining it’s too negative? Well, the flip side of that is pulling out the same useless stats that never materialize, like the playoff exit in the first round is only part of the story. It’s the ONLY story, this is sport, not a probability computer generated program. On look, we win, expected goals! Geezus. I want banners and a cup, everything else is noise and that’s why people are red with anger over ANOTHER first round exit, nevemind a decent run.
It’s all scorn until they prove something, it’s well earned.
zeke
The Dube Abides
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DarkKnight
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acrobaticgoalie
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It does get tiresome. The Marlies/prospects thread is probably the only positive thread. Its pretty much just the posters who actually pay attention to our prospects and post highlights or updates as to how they are doing.
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