Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[TheBeard]

He also played against a lot of shit! He was one of the leagues best players ever in a league full of alot less talent.

Orr????

 

[canuck2010]

Makar is a much better player than Karlsson (Mr. Adventure in his own end).

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Man, what I would have done to see Karlsson play on a team 75% as good as Colorado…

Karlsson in 2017 had 3 more points than the next guy and 7 more points than the 3rd best guy.

Makar had 4 more points than the next guy and 5 more points than the 3rd best guy.

Karlsson had +8 more than the 2nd best guy and Makar was significantly lagging in that category with 4 guys higher than him.

Karlsson’s playoff run(s) would have been something for the record books if he played on a deep team… what could have been, man. Would have cracked 100 points reg season and 30+ in playoffs.

Congrats to Cale for a sensational season.

 

[Divine]

It's crazy Cale Makar's season.

He went from being underrated to incredibly overrated in the course of one season.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Makar is lagging behind in the career altering injuries category. I don't think he'll ever be stupid enough to reach the same numbers as Karlsson

Because getting your achilles tendon chopped off is about your intelligence? What?

 

[umma gumma]

Makar is a much better player than Karlsson (Mr. Adventure in his own end).

Again, how does a team get to within a goal of the finals if their best option on defence playing 30min a night is an 'adventure in his own end'? Seeing as they were not a high scoring team, it makes little sense.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

The most impressive thing a player can do is be really good on a mediocre team.

as a defenceman that's actually true.

there are almost no norris winners or candidates that come from mediocre teams or non playoff teams.

they are almost all from contenders.

while any legit #1 who plays on a bad team people start asking if they actually suck. (hedman, chara, karlsson, doughty, keith etc happens to all)

a lot harder to stand out on a bad team as a top pair defenceman vs top pair on a contender playing with 4 ppg talents and a d-partner who himself was almost ppg.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

I thought the hype on Makar was bad but he deserves some hype after this season

the real hype villain here is Karlsson - was never the best player in the league was never the best defensemen even

 

[keglu]

as a defenceman that's actually true.

there are almost no norris winners or candidates that come from mediocre teams or non playoff teams.

they are almost all from contenders.

while any legit #1 who plays on a bad team people start asking if they actually suck. (hedman, chara, karlsson, doughty, keith etc happens to all)

a lot harder to stand out on a bad team as a top pair defenceman vs top pair on a contender playing with 4 ppg talents and a d-partner who himself was almost ppg.

Josi almost won this year and won 2 years ago on mediocre teams,
Same for Fox last year

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Josi almost won this year and won 2 years ago on mediocre teams,
Same for Fox last year

those teams aren't really that mediocre.

Predators have made the playoffs 8 straight seasons.

Fox had 4 players hit higher production than him and they were one of the best teams in the league this year.


I'm talking about teams that are basement dwellers.

 

[Crossfire Hurricane]

those teams aren't really that mediocre.

Predators have made the playoffs 8 straight seasons.

Fox had 4 players hit higher production than him and they were one of the best teams in the league this year.


I'm talking about teams that are basement dwellers.

Basement dwellers hardly seem like they'd qualify as mediocre. But if you added Makar (or another Norris level defenseman) to Arizona or Montreal, they wouldn't be basement dwellers anymore anyway.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Basement dwellers hardly seem like they'd qualify as mediocre. But if you added Makar (or another Norris level defenseman) to Arizona or Montreal, they wouldn't be basement dwellers anymore anyway.

at best they go from basement dwellers to mediocre and since there's no success no one really cares about Makar or that other Norris level defenceman because even if they perform at Norris level other defenceman playing on contenders will have more impressive stats, +/-, team success, and hype.

 

[OvieGreat8]

Scoring is easier.
Makar will never finish Top 5 in scoring ever like Karlsson so no.

Makar will never even be as good as Mike Green at the same age.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Through four years I'd probably only put Orr and Potvin ahead of Makar. Bourque and Coffey are debatable. Karlsson and Leetch just behind.

 

[Sol]

Last thing I'll say is that I just completely reject the premise that we're forced to accept: that "prime Karlsson" was the guy that occured for a 19 game sample size in 2017 and that we can extrapolate that to his game the rest of the time. and we're just supposed to dismiss all the other evidence to the contrary.

That 2017 playoff model was actually him playing defensively over his head and that 'prime Karlsson' from 2013ish to 2018ish was not that guy. And that we're comparing Makar, who has a couple of years of this behind him already, to that quarter-season-sized sample?

The biggest issue in Karlsson's game was always defensive consistency. He showed he had the ability in 2017; but the other hundreds of games of his career he was the same flawed dude, excellent offensively, average-at-best defensively. Makar has already surpassed him on both fronts. And the incoming Conn Smythe will solidify that.

I think to call Karlsson defensively average is a gross exaggeration. He was terrible at defense.

 

[keglu]

those teams aren't really that mediocre.

Predators have made the playoffs 8 straight seasons.

Fox had 4 players hit higher production than him and they were one of the best teams in the league this year.


I'm talking about teams that are basement dwellers.

All these 3 teams were 16th in the league points wise. So mediocre for me.

 

[Crossfire Hurricane]

at best they go from basement dwellers to mediocre and since there's no success no one really cares about Makar or that other Norris level defenceman because even if they perform at Norris level other defenceman playing on contenders will have more impressive stats, +/-, team success, and hype.

Well... Players from mediocre teams have won Norris trophies pretty regularly? Karlsson did it in 2015, unless you want to argue that the 2015 Senators wouldn't be a basement team without EK.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

All these 3 teams were 16th in the league points wise. So mediocre for me.

sure i guess mediocre is the wrong word. bad or basement dweller is more appropriate.

all three teams were much better than the teams Karlsson played for aside from perhaps 2011, the only time he got to play with another elite player and decent depth.

and even that 2011 team was no where near being a contender.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Have we incorporated the new information that Mike Green was better at the same age?

 

[TheBeard]

Through four years I'd probably only put Orr and Potvin ahead of Makar. Bourque and Coffey are debatable. Karlsson and Leetch just behind.

What about Larry Robinson and Lidstrom?

 

[canuck2010]

Again, how does a team get to within a goal of the finals if their best option on defence playing 30min a night is an 'adventure in his own end'? Seeing as they were not a high scoring team, it makes little sense.

I watched a lot of Senators hockey and over his career I don't think he was terribly good in his own end.

 

[Jozay]

Makars resume is extremely impressive already. No doubt he will go down as the better player all time.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I love this thread because some years ago there was a Senators fan who kept arguing about Karlsson being better than Ray Borque and even Bobby Orr.

 

[hockeyfan2k18]

Put Karlsson on this Avs team and he'd be a monster.

Makars resume is extremely impressive already. No doubt he will go down as the better player all time.

Let the kid finish his career first.

 

[Jozay]

Put Karlsson on this Avs team and he'd be a monster.



Let the kid finish his career first.

Why? He's already ahead of Karlsson in career achievements