Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Voight]

Makar winning the Conn Smythe does. Norris doesn't hurt either since people were saying that he needed one of those before the conversation could begin.

Thats the point..... people talk non stop about Karlssons play in 2017 but Makars team just won the cup (thanks in large part to him) ad outscored everyone on Tampa & Colorado.

 

[TheBeard]

It’s mostly that there were people very recently bringing up Makar’s lack of hardware and that changed from advantage->Karlsson to advantage->Makar in a hurry.

If we’re defining who is better based on hardware then those already declaring he’s up there with Bobby Orr look pretty friggin stupid.

 

[Crossfire Hurricane]

I think Makar is good, but he was exploited against TB in that he’s not quite at that level… yet. He’ll probably get there but these finals, Smythe or not, was a bit of a reality check for him. Smart teams keep books on players so unless he learns from his mistakes (probable) his occasional poor defensive lapses will happen more and more often


This is just dumb.

Hedman got abused several times too. Vasi let in a bunch of goals he shouldn't have. Kucherov only had 4 points in 6 games. Elite teams will do that to you.


And yeah, that's what I was going for.

 

[TheBeard]

Hedman got abused several times too. Vasi let in a bunch of goals he shouldn't have. Kucherov only had 4 points in 6 games. Elite teams will do that to you.


And yeah, that's what I was going for.

All three of those players have a proven track record.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Yup. If Makar stays healthy we're are truly going to be witnessing something special. The Orr comparisons really are realistic it seems.

Orr had 2 Art Ross's and a 6 year streak of at least a top 3 scoring finish (2 1st, 3 2nd 1 3rd). Makar has yet to crack the top 20 in League scoring.

He's awesome, and it's nice that finishing dead last by ~20 points and then getting boned in the draft lottery worked so well for the Avs, but there's a reason Orr is the undisputed #1 d of all time.

 

[Crossfire Hurricane]

All three of those players have a proven track record.

If you're not familiar with Cale Makar, that's a you problem.

 

[TheBeard]

If you're not familiar with Cale Makar, that's a you problem.

Good argument. I don’t know why I allow myself to get baited into these subjective debates with fanatics. That’s on me.

Orr had 2 Art Ross's and a 6 year streak of at least a top 3 scoring finish (2 1st, 3 2nd 1 3rd). Makar has yet to crack the top 20 in League scoring.

He's awesome, and it's nice that finishing dead last by ~20 points and then getting boned in the draft lottery worked so well for the Avs, but there's a reason Orr is the undisputed #1 d of all time.

He also won 8 Norris Trophies in a row.

 

[Dominance]

Yes and his 2nd Norris best season will seal the deal completely for even the most homer of EK fans

This should have been his second Norris, anyways.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

In retrospect. The 2017 NHL draft turned out to be a very good crop. Maker is tops on that list. Great player that is a treat to watch.

 

[Video Nasty]

Orr had 2 Art Ross's and a 6 year streak of at least a top 3 scoring finish (2 1st, 3 2nd 1 3rd). Makar has yet to crack the top 20 in League scoring.

He's awesome, and it's nice that finishing dead last by ~20 points and then getting boned in the draft lottery worked so well for the Avs, but there's a reason Orr is the undisputed #1 d of all time.

I consider myself one of the last people around these boards to not make the argument in favor of the past player and try to explain why they were so special compared to the modern comparable.

But people are either ignorant or oblivious when they don’t think that rapid expansion had some role in why Orr was able to dominate to the degree that he did.

From his rookie season through his final season of relevance, the league ballooned from a 6 team league all way up to 18. In just 9 years. When you drop a transcendent talent like Orr into that kind of environment, he’s going to feed.

He’s of course still the best and the standard at his position, but we’ll never know what his scoring finishes would have looked like in a stable league that is 2-3x larger than most of his already short career.

Makar is never going to win a scoring title with players like McDavid in the league, but having 20 players ahead while missing a handful of games isn’t too shabby in a league that has 2-3x the talent pool and 50 extra years of fine tuning.

 

[Crossfire Hurricane]

Good argument. I don’t know why I allow myself to get baited into these subjective debates with fanatics. That’s on me.

I mean, you're the one implying that a guy with two Norris nominations, one Norris win, a Smythe, two first team All-Star selections, and a Calder doesn't have a proven track record.

 

[TheBeard]

I mean, you're the one implying that a guy with two Norris nominations, one Norris win, a Smythe, two first team All-Star selections, and a Calder doesn't have a proven track record.

In the Stanley cup finals? No.

 

[SwedishFire]

I think Karlsson had better technic and some sort of special attitude, But Cale Makar is just a more safe card.
And just as good in both sides of the rink, and a more mobile skater.

I give Makar a small edge.

 

[Crossfire Hurricane]

In the Stanley cup finals? No.

Then you're just narrowing the criteria to the point of rendering it meaningless. Hedman, Kucherov, and Vasi don't really have a proven track record in the Stanley Cup Final after a full 82 game season.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I consider myself one of the last people around these boards to not make the argument in favor of the past player and try to explain why they were so special compared to the modern comparable.

But people are either ignorant or oblivious when they don’t think that rapid expansion had some role in why Orr was able to dominate to the degree that he did.

From his rookie season through his final season of relevance, the league ballooned from a 6 team league all way up to 18. In just 9 years. When you drop a transcendent talent like Orr into that kind of environment, he’s going to feed.

He’s of course still the best and the standard at his position, but we’ll never know what his scoring finishes would have looked like in a stable league that is 2-3x larger than most of his already short career.

Makar is never going to win a scoring title with players like McDavid in the league, but having 20 players ahead while missing a handful of games isn’t too shabby in a league that has 2-3x the talent pool and 50 extra years of fine tuning.

Two things:
1) if we're going to start the "Is Makar comparable to Orr" convo with "well, actually, Orr wasn't thaaat great", then I don't see the point in making the comparison in the first place.
2) you're not wrong, but we can play this what if game ("What if Orr played his first 6 years on the 2011-2017 Carolina Hurricanes???") until we're Bruin the face (pun intended). Orr accomplished certain things during his illustrious career, and these things are why he is considered the greateat d and one of the best 4 ever. If we're going to compare the two, then bringing up those accomplishments with limited context is valid. In other words, I don't view this as a battle-boarding of who would win in a fight/be the better hockey player style of vis a vis player comparison (which necessitates context to try and equalize player situations), I view it as a comparison of accomplishments. And I don't think Makar is there yet. He may get there. A top 20 point finish is a start.

 

[jonu]

Karlsson was never the best player in the league at any point, but he was the best defensemen. That said, Makar is clearly the best player in the league right now & is far better than Karlsson was.

Lets pump the brakes a little bit. Makar is not the best player in the league right now.

 

[edog37]

I disagree about Karlsson ever being the best defensemen in the league

for a brief time he was, but then injury took over.

Bolded are all false.

wrong.

 

[Stephen]

On one side of the equation you have ECF finals glory, an Achilles injury and a what could have been story. On the other side of the equation you have a Norris, Conn Smythe, Stanley Cup and a 1st All-Star Team all earned in one week.

 

[AvalancheRy]

If we’re defining who is better based on hardware then those already declaring he’s up there with Bobby Orr look pretty friggin stupid.

Comparing Makar to any defensemen who has already played out their entire career is insane, but that's not what people are doing. I've seen some say he's one of the few defensemen we've seen recently who are on an Orr-like trajectory. ESPN today was saying Makar is reinventing the position. The TNT crew was saying he was the best player in the league and comparing him to early Orr. Who knows what will happen in the future. But Makar has already fairly clearly shown he's a special player we haven't seen in quite some time and everyone should be stoked to get to see how it plays out.

I personally don't care though. I'd like to see people comparing Makar to Orr in 15 years not right now, and I just want to enjoy the ride.

 

[MBrodeur]

Yes Makar is clearly better he won a cup Karlsson won nothing

I understand people thinking Makar is better but this is such a bad argument.

Do people not know this is a team game? Colorado is so much better than any team Karlsson ever played for.

 

[Stephen]

I understand people thinking Makar is better but this is such a bad argument.

Do people not know this is a team game? Colorado is so much better than any team Karlsson ever played for.

The weak team argument can only be stretched so far. "Wayne Gretzky and Dale Hawerchuk switched positions in 1981 the whole landscape of 80s hockey would have been very different." Maybe, but great players on great teams is kind of the whole point of team sports.

 

[socko]

Cale is like a throwback to the Brian Leetch and Paul Coffey days. He's fun to watch.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

On one side of the equation you have ECF finals glory, an Achilles injury and a what could have been story. On the other side of the equation you have a Norris, Conn Smythe, Stanley Cup and a 1st All-Star Team all earned in one week.

Yes, if you have blinders on, and don't take into account their respective situations it is that simple.

But we all know that the reality is not so.

Makar gets the better hype because he plays on a much better team than Karlsson ever has, he plays for a U.S team with the U.S media hyping him. We all know Canada doesn't care about the Senators, and even they couldn't ignore Karlsson's glory.

This all being said, I think Makar is definitely going to be one of the best defenseman of his generation.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

And if Makar doesn't get hurt last year, he has two Norris trophies in his first three years. If Kadri doesn't get suspended and the Avs get better goaltending, he might have another Cup and Conn Smythe. Or three Cups and three Conn Smythes if the Avs aren't playing their third goalie in game 7 OT against Dallas.

So Makar is clearly ahead in hypotheticals.

A huge part of comparing player levels is sustainably. Karlsson sustained his high level of play beyond years he didn’t win awards. Makar simply doesn’t have the body of work yet to compare to prime Karlsson. Give it time and he likely will, but this is extremely premature.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

The weak team argument can only be stretched so far. "Wayne Gretzky and Dale Hawerchuk switched positions in 1981 the whole landscape of 80s hockey would have been very different." Maybe, but great players on great teams is kind of the whole point of team sports.

The Leafs have great players every single season. Why can’t they ever win a single round?

People hold the individual hostage for the team results waaaay too often on this site.