Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Captain Creampuff]

Erik Karlsson on the Sens has to be one of the most overrated players of all time lmao.

 

[avsfan9]

Well… there’s one Norris for Makar!

 

[Avsfan1921]

Makar is better than karlsson on every level and if you don’t believe me I’ll argue in circles for days on end and say you haven’t watched him in his prime. Mine is only correct way to look at it and your a fool if you don’t agree with me.

 

[wetcoast]

Well actually in these playoffs Toews is averaging over a minute more at ES than Makar. Makar is also averaging less toi at ES in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. So again, there goes your claim that he's been relied upon more. So you just completely fabricated a claim that you based on absolutely nothing. Nice job, really doing wonders for the credibility of your arguments.


Yes it does have to do with that. No NHL player thinks "oh well he just puts up points because he plays a lot". Ask every one of them, the more minutes you play, the harder it is in general. Not a single NHL player would ever look at Karlsson's average of 23 minutes of even strength and think "oh so that's going to pad his stats".


The only "context" you've offered is that Makar produces at a higher per 60 rate than Karlsson did. That doesn't mean he produces more. You know who produces more? The guy who puts up more points.

And then you have the gall to claim I want to only look at "partial context" when you're the one stuck up on per 60 and that's the only context you've brought up and are hanging your entire argument on that (even though Josi would then be a better ES player than Makar if we follow your logic). It's literally the only thing you have, and it's worth nothing. You just continuously ignore the substantial difference in league scoring.

In fact if you adjust their ES totals, it becomes even more damning. Karlsson has 63 ES points, and Makar has 50 ES.
P/60 Karlsson: 2.01
P/60 Makar: 1.91

So you said you wanted context. Well there it is, when taking into account ice time, and the differences in league scoring, Karlsson outproduced Makar at ES. And that's not even considering how vastly different their two teams were in terms of offensive weapons at their disposal.

Nobody here is saying Makar isn't elite.

Who produces more, the guy that put up more points? (your words here)

Seriously dude your logic is just lacking,

Makar out up more points in less games but according to your leaps up here it's probably because Makar was more rested or something f****d up like that.

I seriously doubt that Makar could ever pass peak EK as you simply have a closed mind on the subject and that's pretty clear here with all the distortion but hey that's okay we see it from a select few Ovi fans as well.

 

[LuckyPierre]

Karlsson supporter here - Makar had a hell of a year and is deserving of a Norris. Won't in all likelihood be his last. Hope he stays healthy, because like pre-achilles EK, he is morphing the way the game is approached from the back end with his athleticism.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Who produces more, the guy that put up more points? (your words here)

Seriously dude your logic is just lacking,

Makar out up more points in less games but according to your leaps up here it's probably because Makar was more rested or something f****d up like that.

I seriously doubt that Makar could ever pass peak EK as you simply have a closed mind on the subject and that's pretty clear here with all the distortion but hey that's okay we see it from a select few Ovi fans as well.

Oh now we're back to ignoring the context again (going as far to ignore the context surrounding my words). I thought you wanted to bring all the context into the discussion, but I guess when you found out it didn't support your narrative, we're back to just raw total points again, no context. Maybe you should do your research next time before making false claims that are easy to disprove so you don't have to dig yourself out of a hole. You've seriously reached a new low here, which is saying a lot.

Makar could 100% pass peak EK. He just hasn't done it yet. He won his 1st Norris tonight, that just proves he has the ability to surpass prime EK. And if you're so concerned with my opinion on Makar's game and what he needs to do to reach peak EK, I made a post earlier in this thread in response to a a user who was actually interested in debating in good faith. Not making false claims that are easy to disprove, constantly switching between "context", or cherry picking what "context" to use, or just flat out ignoring it completely whenever it's convenient to you. But I guess that's nothing new.

 

[wetcoast]

Oh now we're back to ignoring the context again (going as far to ignore the context surrounding my words). I thought you wanted to bring all the context into the discussion, but I guess when you found out it didn't support your narrative, we're back to just raw total points again, no context. Maybe you should do your research next time before making false claims that are easy to disprove so you don't have to dig yourself out of a hole. You've seriously reached a new low here, which is saying a lot.

Makar could 100% pass peak EK. He just hasn't done it yet. He won his 1st Norris tonight, that just proves he has the ability to surpass prime EK. And if you're so concerned with my opinion on Makar's game and what he needs to do to reach peak EK, I made a post earlier in this thread in response to a a user who was actually interested in debating in good faith. Not making false claims that are easy to disprove, constantly switching between "context", or cherry picking what "context" to use, or just flat out ignoring it completely whenever it's convenient to you. But I guess that's nothing new.

It was a sarcastic response to your post.

You just keeping repeating noise the statistical case and eye test are out there but you certainly can't see it with your eyes closed.

 

[TheBeard]

It was a sarcastic response to your post.

You just keeping repeating noise the statistical case and eye test are out there but you certainly can't see it with your eyes closed.

Nothing like wasting a whole day arguing about other people doing great things.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Karlsson supporter here - Makar had a hell of a year and is deserving of a Norris. Won't in all likelihood be his last. Hope he stays healthy, because like pre-achilles EK, he is morphing the way the game is approached from the back end with his athleticism.

True and talents like EK and Makar are always targets for big hits or other idiotism.

 

[wetcoast]

Nothing like wasting a whole day arguing about other people doing great things.

This is HF Boards and that's the very definition of it right?

 

[TheBeard]

This is HF Boards and that's the very definition of it right?

Arguing? Yes. Wasting an entire day going back and forth about something subjective is a different story.

 

[triggrman]

What year did Karlsson get the Achilles injury?

 

[umma gumma]

What year did Karlsson get the Achilles injury?

Cooke did his thing in early 2013, and he had another career altering injury during the 2017 playoffs and has not really been the same since.

 

[triggrman]

Cooke did his thing in early 2013, and he had another career altering injury during the 2017 playoffs and has not really been the same since.

So most of his best hockey was played after the injury. It's time to stop using that injury as the excuse of why his play dropped off. His play dropped off when he got traded, and that has more to do with it than the Achilles injury.

 

[umma gumma]

So most of his best hockey was played after the injury. It's time to stop using that injury as the excuse of why his play dropped off. His play dropped off when he got traded, and that has more to do with it than the Achilles injury.

Karlsson lost his explosiveness after the Achillies incident. There was a quote from Martin St. Louis saying something like 'Karlsson's first three strides were unlike anyone he'd seen before'. That was gone. Wish I could find the quote. His play dropped drop off after his phenomenal run to the ECF (2017) where he played it on one foot, and missed the start of the following season recovering from surgery to repair it. He hasn't been the same since. That one affected him far more than the achilles.

 

[Party Kane]

Absolutely not. Karlsson was at one point considered the best player in the league, at worse, 2nd or 3rd. Karlsson almost willed the lowly senators to the stanley cup finals on a team that doesbyt want to pay to keep their players. Karlsson has also been robbed of at least a couple Norris trophies himself. Makar is great but give Prime Karlsson the supporting cast Makar has now and thia wouldn't be a discussion.

 

[Voight]

Erik Karlsson on the Sens has to be one of the most overrated players of all time lmao.

One would think he was the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Absolutely not. Karlsson was at one point considered the best player in the league, at worse, 2nd or 3rd. Karlsson almost willed the lowly senators to the stanley cup finals on a team that doesbyt want to pay to keep their players. Karlsson has also been robbed of at least a couple Norris trophies himself. Makar is great but give Prime Karlsson the supporting cast Makar has now and thia wouldn't be a discussion.

Which years? He finished 2nd twice.... to Doughty and Burns. Maybe he could have won it in 2017 but Burns scored more and all the voters really cared about at that time was points.

If you are going to attempt to point out 2016... well Doughty was the rightful winner a year prior so its a moot point.

 

[LuckyPierre]

What year did Karlsson get the Achilles injury?

So most of his best hockey was played after the injury. It's time to stop using that injury as the excuse of why his play dropped off. His play dropped off when he got traded, and that has more to do with it than the Achilles injury.

If you have to ask, you weren't paying attention and can't make that judgement.

Pre-achilles Karlsson was a freak skater and had the killer instinct and mental sharpness to go along with it. I see Makar the same way today, and have been saying so for a couple years.

Post-achilles Karlsson lost the ability to pivot and lost his jump, and even so was able to peak the way he did because of his remaining physical gifts, competitiveness, and sharp focus. If he peaked that high with certain encumbrances, imagine what he would have done without having to work around a catastrophic injury. You'd begin to understand why Karlsson fans are adamant about his achievements and his place in the conversation.

Post-ankle Karlsson lost another full step, and still had stretches of brilliance and dominance in between groin and hand injuries for San Jose.

Karlsson's original trajectory was unlimited relative to his peers, and that's how I see Makar now. Again, so much fun to watch players that are worth the price of admission, and I hope Makar doesn't face any health troubles along the way that rob us of witnessing him fulfill his true potential, that of an all time great.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

I think he has surpassed him now.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Best numbers by a defenceman to start a career in the cap era to go along with a Cup, Norris, and Smyth at 23.

 

[Ncit3]

Best numbers by a defenceman to start a career in the cap era to go along with a Cup, Norris, and Smyth at 23.

View attachment 562432

Calder, Cup, Norris, Smythe, Hobey Baker. Next step Hart trophy. Dude is just simply one of the best players in the world.

 

[Avsboy]

He's in Coffey territory, or on the way

 

[MessierII]

Easily

 

[TheBeard]

I think he has surpassed him now.

He won his Smythe because of what he did in the first three rounds. He was rather disappointing in the finals. Either way it doesn’t really change anything.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Makar has now done something only true generational dmen has done. Norris, cup and Conn Smythe in the same year. The others were Orr and Lidstrom. Karlsson has been left in the dust.