Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Lafleurs Guy]

Not comparable because you don't want to compare it or it doesn't matter? Because it clearly does matter.

Not comparable because they can’t really be compared. One guy’s on a scrub team the other on one that’s stacked. Karlsson’s teams were never going to go anywhere. So comparing postseason isn’t going to tell you much.

That doesn’t mean Makar hasn’t been brilliant this postseason because he certainly has. But it doesn’t make him a definitively better player or hold much water in THIS particular comparison.

The only way to really compare these guys is regular season.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Oh so a .17 difference isn't close at all? I guess then you finally agree that 2021-22's 3.14 goals per game isn't close to 2015-16's 2.74. Took you a while, but I'm glad you finally came around.

The 0.17 difference when you're talking about 0.6 and 0.43 is not the same as when the comparing numbers are larger like 3.14 and 2.74.

 

[Stephen]

I said something about Sundin. I want to know if your logic applies to him as well. Forget Alfredsson if that's such a sensitive topic for you. Eric Staal and Zetterberg are better players than Sundin right? Brad Richards is a better player than Sundin right?

Wow, we've almost reached self-awareness. So so close.

The way you've framed the question would lead me to believe that you think Sundin is a better player than Alfredsson, Staal, Zetterberg and Brad Richards. And you would be right.

But so, so wrong if you want to apply the 'logic' to Makar vs Karlsson.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

You need to learn a bit of math buddy.

The 0.17 difference when you're talking about 0.6 and 0.43 is not the same as when the comparing numbers are larger like 3.14 and 2.74.

You understand that those numbers represent goals right? Do you need me to explain what a goal is to you?

Those numbers mean that in 2022, the average team scored 256 goals on the season, 222 in 2016 and 299 in 1981. That means that the average team in 1981 averaged 43 more goals than the average team in 2022. The average team in 2022 averaged 34 more goals than teams in 2016. So the difference between 1981 > 2022 is 9 more than the difference between 2022 > 2016. 9 goals per team on the year.

You're right man, not close lmao.

The way you've framed the question would lead me to believe that you think Sundin is a better player than Alfredsson, Staal, Zetterberg and Brad Richards. And you would be right.

But so, so wrong if you want to apply the 'logic' to Makar vs Karlsson.

So that logic only works when you want it to? It doesn't apply to your favorite players like Sundin.

Okay, just wanted you to admit it. Carry on.

 

[TheBeard]

By the time he got to the Avs, they were an 8th place team. He was crucial in making the step from 8th to contender.

Jesus Christ. The team literally jumped 52 points the year after drafting Cale without him playing a single game. In fact that year 17-18 was your highest point total until this year. The team was heading in that direction with or without him but if you guys wanna continue with your ridiculous hyperbole about a player like I’ve seen on HF a thousand times before then be my guest.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Makar will go down as the superior player with a better career, it's just his 3rd season so this is a bit too early.

PPG+ regular season and playoff Dman with an excellent overall game. That's a complete unicorn.

 

[tucker3434]

Jesus Christ. The team literally jumped 52 points the year after drafting Cale without him playing a single game. In fact that year 17-18 was your highest point total until this year. The team was heading in that direction with or without him but if you guys wanna continue with your ridiculous hyperbole about a player like I’ve seen on HF a thousand times before then be my guest.

We had finished 8th twice in a row when Makar got here. He comes in for the Calgary series round 1 and we smoke them before losing to SJ by 1 goal in game 7 of round two. His arrival was the exact moment the Avs hype train started. Nobody thought anything of the Avs before those playoffs. Since then Makar has been a Norris finalist twice and the Avs have finished 2nd, 1st and 1st. I don’t know how you think these things aren’t related.

 

[Rengorlex]

Jesus Christ. The team literally jumped 52 points the year after drafting Cale without him playing a single game. In fact that year 17-18 was your highest point total until this year. The team was heading in that direction with or without him but if you guys wanna continue with your ridiculous hyperbole about a player like I’ve seen on HF a thousand times before then be my guest.

Is there a more dishonest way of framing facts? Jesus Christ.

 

[Demon Wolf]

No disrespect to Makar who is incredible, but people forget just how good Erik Karlsson was in his prime.

 

[wetcoast]

you are taking yourself and this thread too seriously Makar isnt even on the same plane as players like Pronger

My point stands changing a quote without saying so it just disrespectful.

Oh now what matters is how many years a part they played, not the fact that they played in separate eras, that's not enough now. I guess we're moving the goalposts yet again, seems to be a bit of a habit with you.

Btw the difference of the league average scoring between 1981 (Kent Nilssons' 131 point season) to 2022 is 0.6. The difference between 2022 and 2016 is 0.43. Pretty close.


What is your point? You don't have a point...

Once again you can say context matters but you have proven time and again that it's only one sided context for you but I'll give you props as you are consistent in being one sided.

 

[Taluss]

Not comparable because you don't want to compare it or it doesn't matter? Because it clearly does matter.

It’s unfair to compare because Karlsson never had the same chance Makar does. Makar’s stats will naturally be inflated because of the team he’s on.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

You understand that those numbers represent goals right? Do you need me to explain what a goal is to you?

Those numbers mean that in 2022, the average team scored 256 goals on the season, 222 in 2016 and 299 in 1981. That means that the average team in 1981 averaged 43 more goals than the average team in 2022. The average team in 2022 averaged 34 more goals than teams in 2016. So the difference between 1981 > 2022 is 9 more than the difference between 2022 > 2016. 9 goals per team on the year.

You're right man, not close lmao.


So that logic only works when you want it to? It doesn't apply to your favorite players like Sundin.

Okay, just wanted you to admit it. Carry on.

That's fair. I misunderstood those numbers. Adjusted to this year, I think Karlsson topped out at 94 points, Makar missed 5 games and was on pace for 92. Josi had 96.

 

[TheBeard]

Is there a more dishonest way of framing facts? Jesus Christ.

They had 95 points that year. This was the first year they had more

 

[Turin]

They had 95 points that year. This was the first year they had more

Just keep digging

 

[TheBeard]

We had finished 8th twice in a row when Makar got here. He comes in for the Calgary series round 1 and we smoke them before losing to SJ by 1 goal in game 7 of round two. His arrival was the exact moment the Avs hype train started. Nobody thought anything of the Avs before those playoffs. Since then Makar has been a Norris finalist twice and the Avs have finished 2nd, 1st and 1st. I don’t know how you think these things aren’t related.

It do it had nothing to do with the fact that in 17-18 both Nate and Rantanen found their games and had 97 and 84 points respectively and haven’t slowed down since? They were just a bunch of chumps but then Jesus Makar came around and suddenly that’s when people took them seriously? Did he put them over the top? Sure. So did Toews and Kadri and whomever else has been added.

I’m out of this thread. The ridiculousness of how far people will go to argue their point borders on pointless. Makar is the greatest player of all time and they should rename the Norris after him.

Just keep digging

I’m arguing with a bunch of Colorado fans. I’m obviously wasting my time trying to be rational.

 

[Rengorlex]

They had 95 points that year. This was the first year they had more

Since you may not have been aware, there was a pandemic that shortened the schedule in Makar's first two seasons. Here's how Avs looked like in points %, prior to and with Makar joining in:
17-18: .579% (95 pts)
18-19: .549% (90 pts)
Makar joins in
19-20: .657% (108 pts pace)
20-21: .732% (120 pts pace)
21-22: .726% (119 pts)

 

[HotPie]

Not comparable because they can’t really be compared. One guy’s on a scrub team the other on one that’s stacked. Karlsson’s teams were never going to go anywhere. So comparing postseason isn’t going to tell you much.

That doesn’t mean Makar hasn’t been brilliant this postseason because he certainly has. But it doesn’t make him a definitively better player or hold much water in THIS particular comparison.

The only way to really compare these guys is regular season.

If they can't be compared, why even bother having this debate with other people in the first place when you're trying to argue one vs. the other?

 

[Rengorlex]

Is it more impressive to be the best player on a terrible team or the best player on the best team? Because Karlsson was the first, Makar is the latter.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Is it more impressive to be the best player on a terrible team or the best player on the best team? Because Karlsson was the first, Makar is the latter.

The lack of nuance in the arguments in this thread really is astounding. Judging by your logic, I guess Makar is better than McDavid right? And up until this past year, guys like Kucherov, and Ryan O'Reilly were better than McDavid too.

And that's not even considering that Makar being considered the best player on the Avalanche is an extremely recent development. Outside of a few Avalanche fans, the consensus just about everywhere was that MacKinnon is their best player, and that's the way it's been for the past 3 seasons.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If they can't be compared, why even bother having this debate with other people in the first place when you're trying to argue one vs. the other?

It’s the postseason I’m talking about.

I have zero issue with somebody pointing out that Makar has been awesome and is the favourite for the Smythe. He’s earned it.

It’s the other side of the equation here. The “why couldn’t Karlsson do that too?” that is nonsensical because he clearly never had the chance to do it. He took a crap team as far as it could go… one game away from the finals and lost to the eventual champs. There not much more you can ask for.

 

[Dion TheFluff]

he should probably win a norris or 2 1st

 

[tucker3434]

It do it had nothing to do with the fact that in 17-18 both Nate and Rantanen found their games and had 97 and 84 points respectively and haven’t slowed down since? They were just a bunch of chumps but then Jesus Makar came around and suddenly that’s when people took them seriously? Did he put them over the top? Sure. So did Toews and Kadri and whomever else has been added.

I’m out of this thread. The ridiculousness of how far people will go to argue their point borders on pointless. Makar is the greatest player of all time and they should rename the Norris after him.


I’m arguing with a bunch of Colorado fans. I’m obviously wasting my time trying to be rational.

Nobody is saying he’s doing it all by himself, but he has a team-leading 24 points in 16 playoff games. I don’t know how you could view that as anything other than a crucial piece of the puzzle.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Nobody is saying he’s doing it all by himself, but he has a team-leading 24 points in 16 playoff games. I don’t know how you could view that as anything other than a crucial piece of the puzzle.

24 points, +13, 27 minutes a game, absurd advanced metrics given his deployment.

No one is pretending he's an island, but you have to have your eyes deliberately closed to suggest he's anything but the main driving force on a Stanley Cup Finalist.

Then again, people tried to cheapen Hedman's, Keith's, Doughty's runs in similar manner if a lesser degree, so get used to it, it comes with team success.

 

[TheBeard]

Nobody is saying he’s doing it all by himself, but he has a team-leading 24 points in 16 playoff games. I don’t know how you could view that as anything other than a crucial piece of the puzzle.

No one is saying he isn't a crucial piece. He's one of the best players in the game at the moment, but to act like the team only turned it around once he got there is simply asinine. Does he make the team better? Sure. Was the team on the path towards being legit contenders regardless? Yes.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

LOL. He hasn’t even reached Karlsson’s prime yet, let alone surpassed it.

How quickly this site wants to make young players the best and shit on the legacies of the aging.