Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Lafleurs Guy]

Karlsson isn't the best dman of his generation.

Okay, thanks for coming out.

 

[wetcoast]

We're talking about a 20 game sample size, not 1 game with your extreme example. And comparing the two after 3 rounds of hockey (2017 vs 2022), Makar was on the ice for more goals against as well, and played more minutes too, so try again.

Poor as the stat may be, what exactly are you offering as a rebuttal other than baseless anecdotal claims that "just watch the games, Makar is way better than Karlsson!"

Yes you are talking about a 20 game sample size when the thread is about prime, maybe someone could pick out a 20 game streak when Mack was out but then you would say sure but small sample size........when he wins the Conn Smythe.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

You don’t understand what an “excuse” is. You’ve made bad arguments throughout the thread and they’ve been thoroughly rebutted. Then you move the goalposts and get rebutted again…

Different scoring eras is not an “excuse” for example.

You actually think your excuses are rebuttles?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Yes you are talking about a 20 game sample size when the thread is about prime, maybe someone could pick out a 20 game streak when Mack was out but then you would say sure but small sample size........when he wins the Conn Smythe.

What kind of argument is this? Karlsson would've won the Conn Smythe had he made the finals in 2017 too, as evidence by the Conn Smythe vote he received. Did you just pop up in this thread to start talking in circles again? We've been through this.

I bet $5 you mention Karlsson going to San Jose in the next post.

You actually think your excuses are rebuttles?

There is nothing to rebut, you've literally made 0 points.

 

[Stephen]

His age is irrelevant, we're not arguing whether or not he has the potential to be better. That hasn't been disputed. It's whether or not he's already better.

Yes, prime Karlsson is better offensively than Nick Lidstrom and probably better than Ray Bourque (and Ray Bourque has a top 10 scoring finish, so poor comparable to Makar). What those guys have over Erik Karlsson are far superior defensive games (and far superior to Cale Makar too), and some of the best longevity out of any players in NHL history. Really don't know what this achieves though, since Cale Makar isn't Bourque or Lidstrom, he doesn't have a single Norris trophy, let alone 5 or 7. He has never led defensemen in league scoring once in his career while Karlsson, Lidstrom, and Bourque did it multiple times.

And what happened to the discussion about post-season success? Do you not agree that Alfredsson, Stall, and Zetterberg > Sundin.

My point is Karlsson's unique offensive track record has never been the benchmark by which elite defensemen are rated in the game and Bourque, Lidstrom and friends all brought a unique blend of accomplishments that made them better defensemen than Karlsson could ever claim to be. Makar's greatness doesn't need to be defined by how closely his numbers match Karlsson (even though they're already better).

Alfredsson had playoff success?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

My point is Karlsson's unique offensive track record has never been the benchmark by which elite defensemen are rated in the game and Bourque, Lidstrom and friends all brought a unique blend of accomplishments that made them better defensemen than Karlsson could ever claim to be. Makar's greatness doesn't need to be defined by how closely his numbers match Karlsson (even though they're already better).

Alfredsson had playoff success?

Yeah Makar isn't Bourque and Lidstrom buddy. Those guys have 12 Norris trophies between them, Makar has 0. And as I said before, all of them led dmen in points multiple times, Makar has never done it. I'm not sure your point makes much sense, because anyone who watched prime Karlsson knows the extreme effect he had on the game, and how he controlled the pace of the game single handily.

Alfredsson had more playoff success than Sundin. That's all that matters right? He made the finals, Sundin didn't. He led the playoffs in goals and points, Sundin didn't. End of story, right? I guess it doesn't feel too good when your own logic is used against you.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

...How are you having this much trouble following along to arguments. The point of saying Nilsson > MacKinnon is to prove how stupid your logic of using raw totals and career ppg as legitimate arguments is.

And Karlsson has two top 10 scoring finishes, Makar has 0. Karlsson led all defensemen in points 4 times, Makar has done it 0 times. Matter of fact, this year was the first year he was even top 5 in dmen scoring.

Oh I thought we were debating about peaks, as if makar can lead dman in scoring 4 times when he's been in the league for 3 lol.

And I haven't watched Kent nilson play so can't comment. I'm pretty sure he and Mack didn't play in the NHL at the same time. Maybe find a better example.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

If you are going to change Makar to Weber don't do it and pretend that the other guy quoted that, it's intellectually dishonest and if it's not an infraction on here it should be.

The guy said Makar so don't change the name in the quote to Weber.

If you are going to change Makar to Weber don't do it and pretend that the other guy quoted that, it's intellectually dishonest and if it's not an infraction on here it should be.

The guy said Makar so don't change the name in the quote to Weber.

you are taking yourself and this thread too seriously Makar isnt even on the same plane as players like Pronger

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Oh I thought we were debating about peaks, as if makar can lead dman in scoring 4 times when he's been in the league for 3 lol.

Well doing it once instead of 0 times would be a good start.

And I haven't watched Kent nilson play so can't comment. I'm pretty sure he and Mack didn't play in the NHL at the same time. Maybe find a better example.

Oh did I miss when Makar was playing for the Avs from 2011-2017? Why do I even need a better example, you're the one who said that it's all about the raw numbers and career ppg are you not? Or are we moving the goalposts again?

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Well doing it once instead of 0 times would be a good start.

Oh did I miss when Makar was playing for the Avs from 2011-2017?

MacKinnon wasn't even born when Nilsson was playing. Try harder.

 

[Rengorlex]

you are taking yourself and this thread too seriously Makar isnt even on the same plane as players like Pronger

If you don't think Makar is already up there with the best of all time by quality of play and talent, I don't know what to say to you. He's the most dominant defenceman I've ever seen.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

If you don't think Makar is already up there with the best of all time by quality of play and talent, I don't know what to say to you. He's the most dominant defenceman I've ever seen.

I didnt say anything to disparage him really - comparing a defensemen to Pronger is a compliment to me

I dont see Makar as being up there with best of all time yet no - but hockey forums rankings dont mean as much to me

 

[wetcoast]

in Karlsson's highest scoring season he has more 5v5 points than Makar. No denying Makar is the better PP player, but again, nobody is claiming otherwise.

You are right, I check EK had 56 ESP in 82 games in 15-16 while averaging 23:50 MPG while Makar had 52 ESP in 77 games while averaging 20:25 MPG at ES.

Clearly another example showing......absolutely zilch in your "argument."

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

My point is Karlsson's unique offensive track record has never been the benchmark by which elite defensemen are rated in the game

Yeah but there are examples where people went out of their way to undervalue an offensive contribution. The Langway over Coffey votes for example were some of the worst votes ever. It was almost as bad a snub as Spielberg not being nominated for best director for Jaws.

and Bourque, Lidstrom and friends all brought a unique blend of accomplishments that made them better defensemen than Karlsson could ever claim to be.

Not sure about that.

Lidstrom and Boutique had very long careers. That’s the biggest difference between them.

Makar's greatness doesn't need to be defined by how closely his numbers match Karlsson (even though they're already better).

No, but somebody decided to make a thread on it so…

And no his offensive numbers aren’t better.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

MacKinnon wasn't even born when Nilsson was playing. Try harder.

Oh now what matters is how many years a part they played, not the fact that they played in separate eras, that's not enough now. I guess we're moving the goalposts yet again, seems to be a bit of a habit with you.

Btw the difference of the league average scoring between 1981 (Kent Nilssons' 131 point season) to 2022 is 0.6. The difference between 2022 and 2016 is 0.43. Pretty close.

You are right, I check EK had 56 ESP in 82 games in 15-16 while averaging 23:50 MPG while Makar had 52 ESP in 77 games while averaging 20:25 MPG at ES.

Clearly another example showing......absolutely zilch in your "argument."

What is your point? You don't have a point...

 

[Stephen]

Yeah but there are examples where people went out of their way to undervalue an offensive contribution. The Langway over Coffee votes for example were some of the worst votes ever. It was almost as bad a snub as Spielberg not being nominated for best director for Jaws.

Not sure about that.

Lidstrom and Boutique had very long careers. That’s the biggest difference between their careers.

No, but somebody decided to make a thread in it so…

And no his offensive numbers aren’t better.

Yes, his numbers are better. He has 55 career playoff points in 51 games, vs 53 career playoff games in 67 and 14 career playoff goals to 8 which has conveniently been ignored repeatedly with a barrage of 'he let his man go in the Blues game' and 'his whole team played well' so 'let's talk about regular season era adjusted scoring finishes.'

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Oh now what matters is how many years a part they played, not the fact that they played in separate eras, that's not enough now. I guess we're moving the goalposts yet again, seems to be a bit of a habit with you.

Btw the difference of the league average scoring between 1981 (Kent Nilssons' 131 point season) to 2022 is 0.6. The difference between 2022 and 2016 is 0.43. Pretty close.

Not close at all. But also, Kent nilson isn't exact a bad player. Not sure why you'd think I'd be so offended by his comparison to Mack.

 

[Stephen]

Yeah Makar isn't Bourque and Lidstrom buddy. Those guys have 12 Norris trophies between them, Makar has 0. And as I said before, all of them led dmen in points multiple times, Makar has never done it. I'm not sure your point makes much sense, because anyone who watched prime Karlsson knows the extreme effect he had on the game, and how he controlled the pace of the game single handily.

Alfredsson had more playoff success than Sundin. That's all that matters right? He made the finals, Sundin didn't. He led the playoffs in goals and points, Sundin didn't. End of story, right? I guess it doesn't feel too good when your own logic is used against you.

I'm just confused why you were you lumping Alfredsson with Eric Staal and Henrik Zetterberg. Two cup winners and... Daniel Alfredsson.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yes, his numbers are better. He has 55 career playoff points in 51 games, vs 53 career playoff games in 67 and 14 career playoff goals to 8 which has conveniently been ignored repeatedly with a barrage of 'he let his man go in the Blues game' and 'his whole team played well' so 'let's talk about regular season era adjusted scoring finishes.'

Playoffs… sure. But we have gone over that before. Not comparable.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Yes, his numbers are better. He has 55 career playoff points in 51 games, vs 53 career playoff games in 67 and 14 career playoff goals to 8 which has conveniently been ignored repeatedly with a barrage of 'he let his man go in the Blues game' and 'his whole team played well' so 'let's talk about regular season era adjusted scoring finishes.'

So we're back to post season totals again? Why haven't you acknowledged the fact that Alfredsson led the playoffs in points and goals, captaining his team to the final, while Sundin never made it past the 3rd round and never led the playoffs in scoring. Alfredsson has 100 playoff points, 51 playoff goals, while Sundin has 82 points and 38 goals.

I'm just confused why you were you lumping Alfredsson with Eric Staal and Henrik Zetterberg. Two cup winners and... Daniel Alfredsson.

Because he led his team to finals, which is something Sundin never even came close to doing. He has more points and goals than Sundin in the playoffs. I'm just confused why you keep dodging the question. I guess you see the hole in your entire argument, and you got caught with your pants down... again.

 

[Stephen]

So we're back to post season totals again? Why haven't you acknowledged the fact that Alfredsson led the playoffs in points and goals, captaining his team to the final, while Sundin never made it past the 3rd round and never led the playoffs in scoring. Alfredsson has 100 playoff points, 51 playoff goals, while Sundin has 82 points and 38 goals.

I didn't say anything about Sundin. I'm just not clear why you put Alfredsson in a bucket with two cup winners.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Playoffs… sure. But we have gone over that before. Not comparable.

Not comparable because you don't want to compare it or it doesn't matter? Because it clearly does matter.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Not close at all. But also, Kent nilson isn't exact a bad player. Not sure why you'd think I'd be so offended by his comparison to Mack.

Oh so a .17 difference isn't close at all? I guess then you finally agree that 2021-22's 3.14 goals per game isn't close to 2015-16's 2.74. Took you a while, but I'm glad you finally came around.

 

[Stephen]

So we're back to post season totals again? Why haven't you acknowledged the fact that Alfredsson led the playoffs in points and goals, captaining his team to the final, while Sundin never made it past the 3rd round and never led the playoffs in scoring. Alfredsson has 100 playoff points, 51 playoff goals, while Sundin has 82 points and 38 goals.


Because he led his team to finals, which is something Sundin never even came close to doing. He has more points and goals than Sundin in the playoffs. I'm just confused why you keep dodging the question. I guess you see the whole in your entire argument, and you got caught with your pants down... again.

Did I ever make a comment about Mats Sundin? I'm just confused why Alfredsson was lumped in with Staal and Zettterberg when you wanted to talk about playoff success.

BTW, based on your Karlsson comments, I thought going to the ECF on a weaker team was the gold standard.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

I didn't say anything about Sundin. I'm just not clear why you put Alfredsson in a bucket with two cup winners.

I said something about Sundin. I want to know if your logic applies to him as well. Forget Alfredsson if that's such a sensitive topic for you. Eric Staal and Zetterberg are better players than Sundin right? Brad Richards is a better player than Sundin right?

BTW, based on your Karlsson comments, I thought going to the ECF on a weaker team was the gold standard.

Wow, we've almost reached self-awareness. So so close. You're like an inch away from getting the point I'm making.