Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Freudian]

Because after 3 rounds of hockey, Karlsson was on the ice for less GA than Makar, but people said that Karlsson benefitted from higher goaltending, so I brought up the percentages stat to provide further context that suggests Karlsson was a top defender on his team as well. And your point about goaltenders actually is funny, because Karlsson played an extra minute per game than Makar too, so theoretically the person benefitting from the smaller sample size would be Makar in this case. More ice time = more opportunities for error, right?

And I hope you realize that any other metric you bring up is also just as results oriented as the 5v5GA%. Not sure why you'd hold any other metric to a higher regard than that one. Personally I don't care about any defensive stat, I judge Karlsson and Makar to have relatively equal defensive games based entirely on watching the games, but it's funny how people have a problem with that stat for some reason.

We can track scoring chances for both players. That's more relevant when it comes to evaluating effective defense because then the hot goalie factor doesn't matter. We can add several years together to increase the sample size, reducing randomness. What do you think happens when we compare these players doing that? Yup.

As for the eye test, pretty much everyone else but you employing it says Makar is clearly a level above EK defensively. I think you are just too emotionally invested in this to view things objectively. It's ok. We all have our favorite players.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

View attachment 560130

Best actor of all-time. Don’t care what anybody says.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Because after 3 rounds of hockey, Karlsson was on the ice for less GA than Makar, but people said that Karlsson benefitted from higher goaltending, so I brought up the percentages stat to provide further context that suggests Karlsson was a top defender on his team as well. And your point about goaltenders actually is funny, because Karlsson played an extra minute per game than Makar too, so theoretically the person benefitting from the smaller sample size would be Makar in this case. More ice time = more opportunities for error, right?

And I hope you realize that any other metric you bring up is also just as results oriented as the 5v5GA%. Not sure why you'd hold any other metric to a higher regard than that one. Personally I don't care about any defensive stat, I judge Karlsson and Makar to have relatively equal defensive games based entirely on watching the games, but it's funny how people have a problem with that stat for some reason.

Are playoffs only 3 rounds now?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Lol not in the same breath as Karlsson with the shortest prime of any star dman of this generation? He was in a weak era with low spread between the high scorers. If you actually examine it closely, you'd see he wasn't much better than letang and burns production wise at his peak. He definitely wasn't as good as letang defensively. Karlsson is basically the dman version of Jamie benn. Karlsson is already surpassed by Makar and josi and hedman. Will most likely be surpassed by fox as well.

Not gonna talk about orr. No one should be in the breath of Orr, not even McDavid.

Shortest prime? From 2012-2017 he won 2 Norris trophies and was runner up twice. Do you know how many defensemen in NHL history have won (at least) 2 Norris trophies and finished runner-up (at least) twice? It's something like 9. I'm pretty sure it's Orr, Bourque, Harvey, Lidstrom, Potvin, Chelios, Pilotte, Karlsson and one other I'm forgetting. Most elite defensemen are not Norris favorites for a 7 season stretch, and most elite defensemen don't have a peak as high as Karlsson either. Put some respect on his name for shit sake, it really makes your argument seem way weaker when you try to diminish how good of a player he is. Do you see anyone in here cutting down Makar? Everyone arguing for Karlsson fully admits Makar is great and could end up better than Karlsson, but we have guys like you taking their potshots. It's ridiculous.

Are playoffs only 3 rounds now?

That's when Karlsson was eliminated, it makes no sense to compare the two past that round, especially when one isn't even finished yet. How are you not grasping that?

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Karlsson scored more 5v5 points during that season than Makar did this year. So by your logic you must admit that Karlsson is the superior 5v5 player, no?

Depends on how big the gap that ES point gap is. Also Karlsson somehow finished with a minus lol, while Makar was plus 48. Come on now, no one thinks Karlsson is better 5v5.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

We can track scoring chances for both players. That's more relevant when it comes to evaluating effective defense because then the hot goalie factor doesn't matter. We can add several years together to increase the sample size, reducing randomness. What do you think happens when we compare these players doing that? Yup.

As for the eye test, pretty much everyone else but you employing it says Makar is clearly a level above EK defensively. I think you are just too emotionally invested in this to view things objectively. It's ok. We all have our favorite players.

Oh but scoring chances aren't dependent on team play and the defensive system, or the goalie's rebound control. That's just one single guy who controls that. Lmao get real man. Probably the worst argument I've seen in this thread.

Ah the classic "everyone agrees with me", even though I have eyes and can scroll through several pages of people doing the exact opposite of agreeing with that. I haven't seen that argument since high school, pretty cool of you to dust off an oldie. And who the hell are you to play the "biased" card, you're an Avs fan lmao.

 

[Foppberg]

Yes.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Depends on how big the gap that ES point gap is. Also Karlsson somehow finished with a minus lol, while Makar was plus 48. Come on now, no one thinks Karlsson is better 5v5.

Oh okay so now the gap matters but it doesn't when we're talking about a 7 point gap for total points? You just said 89 > 82, so what happened to that?

Plenty people think Karlsson was better 5v5. Many people who watched both regularly. I really find it hard to believe an Avs fan with a username of a player that has been in the league for 2 or 3 years watched many Ottawa Senators games from 2012-2017.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Shortest prime? From 2012-2017 he won 2 Norris trophies and was runner up twice. Do you know how many defensemen in NHL history have won (at least) 2 Norris trophies and finished runner-up (at least) twice? It's something like 9. I'm pretty sure it's Orr, Bourque, Harvey, Lidstrom, Potvin, Chelios, Pilotte, Karlsson and one other I'm forgetting. Most elite defensemen are not Norris favorites for a 7 season stretch, and most elite defensemen don't have a peak as high as Karlsson either. Put some respect on his name for shit sake, it really makes your argument seem way weaker when you try to diminish how good of a player he is. Do you see anyone in here cutting down Makar? Everyone arguing for Karlsson fully admits Makar is great and could end up better than Karlsson, but we have guys like you taking their potshots. It's ridiculous.


That's when Karlsson was eliminated, it makes no sense to compare the two past that round, especially when one isn't even finished yet. How are you not grasping that?

I respect Karlsson but not as much as you think he deserves. I respect him as much as I respect the other dmen of his era who had lower peaks but better overall careers. He doesn't deserve any more just because you disrespect his team.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

I respect Karlsson but not as much as you think he deserves. I respect him as much as I respect the other dmen of his era who had lower peaks but better overall careers. He doesn't deserve any more just because you disrespect his team.

Better overall careers based on what exactly? Do any other of them have 2 Norris trophies and 2 times runner-up? Do any of them have a "Best Player of the Olympics" title? Do any of them have a top 4 point finish? Do any of them have a Conn Smythe vote despite not even making it to the finals? Do any of them have a top 5 Hart finish? Do any of them have all of the above? Better longevity does not mean better career. Lidstrom did not have a better career than Bobby Orr because he won multiple Norris trophies in his 30s while Orr was retired.

And considering you just acknowledged that Karlsson peaked higher than any other defenseman of his generation, then maybe you can acknowledge the actual argument at hand, which is Makar vs PEAK Karlsson. Not Karlsson career, Karlsson at his best. Nobody is saying Makar can't have a better career than Karlsson. The discussion is if he's already better than Karlsson at his best.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Lol not in the same breath as Karlsson with the shortest prime of any star dman of this generation? He was in a weak era with low spread between the high scorers. If you actually examine it closely, you'd see he wasn't much better than letang and burns production wise at his peak. He definitely wasn't as good as letang defensively. Karlsson is basically the dman version of Jamie benn. Karlsson is already surpassed by Makar and josi and hedman. Will most likely be surpassed by fox as well.

Not gonna talk about orr. No one should be in the breath of Orr, not even McDavid.

I guess Rob Brown had a better year than Iginla did. He had more points so… that’s all that matters right?

 

[GirardSpinorama]

I guess Rob Brown had a better year than Iginla did. He had more points so… that’s all that matters right?

Makar's career average is better than Karlsson's peak year lol. Can you say the same about Rob brown?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Makar's career average is better than Karlsson's peak year lol. Can you say the same about Rob brown?

Hey, your argument made no sense. I’m just highlighting for you how nonsensical it was.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Makar's career average is better than Karlsson's peak year lol. Can you say the same about Rob brown?

Kent Nilsson's career average is better than MacKinnon's peak year, I guess he's better than Nathan MacKinnon. He also had a career year of 131 points. 131 > 99. Simple math. Kent Nilsson is better than MacKinnon.

 

[Three On Zero]

Makar will quickly surpass Karlsson, but he hasn't yet.

Similar to how McDavid will likely surpass Crosby, but he hasn't yet.

We got some good players in the league right now

 

[Stephen]

I guess Rob Brown had a better year than Iginla did. He had more points so… that’s all that matters right?

The way you're framing Makar vs Karlsson with examples like this would imply regular season production is inadmissible... because eras, and playoff success is inadmissible because... teams.

Seems like the only way Makar could possibly be considered to be better than Karlsson is if he were somehow replicated a very specific set of Karlsson check boxes while throwing out all the stuff he's already done better. What a bizarre way to evaluate players.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Hey, your argument made no sense. I’m just highlighting for you how nonsensical it was.

Your argument is weak sauce. In the Almighty Karlsson 4th in scoring season, he doesn't even win the Norris. Explain that to me how that is impressive if Norris voters didn't even recognize it.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Your argument is weak sauce. In the Almighty Karlsson 4th in scoring season, he doesn't even win the Norris. Explain that to me how that is impressive if Norris voters didn't even recognize it.

He was 2nd in Norris voting with 46 first place votes, how on earth is that not recognizing it?

Are you going to hold Makar to the same standard when Josi wins the Norris this year?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The way you're framing Makar vs Karlsson with examples like this would imply regular season production is inadmissible... because eras, and playoff success is inadmissible because... teams.

Seems like the only way Makar could possibly be considered to be better than Karlsson is if he were somehow replicated a very specific set of Karlsson check boxes while throwing out all the stuff he's already done better. What a bizarre way to evaluate players.

I was just replying to a ridiculous argument. I used a ridiculous comparison to highlight it. That’s all.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Your argument is weak sauce. In the Almighty Karlsson 4th in scoring season, he doesn't even win the Norris. Explain that to me how that is impressive if Norris voters didn't even recognize it.

I see you continue to try to move goalposts.

It doesn’t matter any more than Langway winning over Coffey or Theodore over Iginla.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

He was 2nd in Norris voting with 46 first place votes, how on earth is that not recognizing it?

Are you going to hold Makar to the same standard when Josi wins the Norris this year?

Josi hasn't won the Norris.

If Karlsson's 4th in scoring season was so great why did he not win the Norris by a mile?

I see you continue to try to move goalposts.

It doesn’t matter any more than Langway winning over Coffey or Theodore over Iginla.

So now Norris doesn't matter either. Cool.

You set arbitrary goal posts that doesn't actually matter.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So now Norris doesn't matter either. Cool.

In this case? No it doesn’t.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

The way you're framing Makar vs Karlsson with examples like this would imply regular season production is inadmissible... because eras, and playoff success is inadmissible because... teams.

Seems like the only way Makar could possibly be considered to be better than Karlsson is if he were somehow replicated a very specific set of Karlsson check boxes while throwing out all the stuff he's already done better. What a bizarre way to evaluate players.

Nobody is saying regular season production is inadmissible. They're saying regular season production without the context considered is misleading. Really not a hard concept to grasp.

And again, if you're such a fan of raw numbers without any context, then Karlsson still stacks up to Makar in that regard, because we're discussing a 7 point difference here while Karlsson had more 5v5 points. 7 points is the difference between Matthew Tkachuk (104) and Mitch Marner (97) this year, is Matthew Tkachuk and undisputedly better player than Mitch Marner? The difference between Josi and Makar this year is 10 points (in favor of Josi). Is Josi an undisputedly better player than Makar? I guess so following this lazy logic.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

In this case? No it doesn’t.

So does a Norris only matter if Karlsson wins it?

See how there's no way for any dman to surpass Karlsson when you set criterias that have no meaning.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Josi hasn't won the Norris.

If Karlsson's 4th in scoring season was so great why did he not win the Norris by a mile?



So now Norris doesn't matter either. Cool.

Why? Because his team missed the playoffs, and the Canadian media decided Drew Doughty was going to win a Norris that year no matter what. But that wasn't your point, you said that they didn't recognize Karlsson. By that logic, if Makar is so great, why hasn't he been recognized by the Norris voters? Guy has 0 Norris trophies, obviously nobody thinks he's that great.

Funny how the goalposts continue to move with every post. Don't be like your King's fan buddy, strawman and ignoring the legitimate points when they get brought up. Don't do that man, I want to hear a rebuttal.