Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Erik Alfredsson]

Last thing I'll say is that I just completely reject the premise that we're forced to accept: that "prime Karlsson" was the guy that occured for a 19 game sample size in 2017 and that we can extrapolate that to his game the rest of the time. and we're just supposed to dismiss all the other evidence to the contrary.

That 2017 playoff model was actually him playing defensively over his head and that 'prime Karlsson' from 2013ish to 2018ish was not that guy. And that we're comparing Makar, who has a couple of years of this behind him already, to that quarter-season-sized sample?

The biggest issue in Karlsson's game was always defensive consistency. He showed he had the ability in 2017; but the other hundreds of games of his career he was the same flawed dude, excellent offensively, average-at-best defensively. Makar has already surpassed him on both fronts. And the incoming Conn Smythe will solidify that.

Lmao that's rich now. "Playing over his head". Oh so it just doesn't count. Weakest argument yet. New low.

I love how you conveniently say his prime is "2013" which is a year after his first Norris win where he finished top 10 in league scoring had was also great defensively that season too. You're not as sneaky as you think.

Btw, he was great defensively the entirety of that season, not just the playoffs, and was also elite defensively in other instances, such as the 2014 Olympics playing against the best players in the world.

And Makar has not surpassed him offensively, that's pretty clearly been established. Karlsson finished 4th in the league in scoring, led the league in assists, and had another top 10 scoring finish. Makar is 4th on his team. Even ignoring adjusted stats (which you shouldn't), in Karlsson's highest scoring season he has more 5v5 points than Makar. No denying Makar is the better PP player, but again, nobody is claiming otherwise.

 

[tucker3434]

I agree. All the arguments about how “he was drafted to a last place team and now they’re in the cup” is disingenuous.

By the time he got to the Avs, they were an 8th place team. He was crucial in making the step from 8th to contender.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

So Makar is elite defensively, and Karlsson was even better than that?

Sheesh man, get some fresh air. I'm sorry the mere appearance of my user name turns you into a puddle but that's a you problem not a me problem. Cheers.

Another strawman! Going for the world record I see.

Never said Karlsson was better defensively than Makar. I said the difference in defense is miniscule. I said Karlsson is better overall.

It's not your username that pissed me off, it's the argument in bad faith and in literally the most toxic way possible by throwing out limitless strawman and insulting posters. And now you want to throw your hands up and say "Woah man, you're rattled".

 

[TheRarestDangles]

In this series so far? The Avs would be winning without him in the lineup.

In the playoffs overall? Totally different story.

So you have a point you've been trying to make from the beginning--but at this stage I'm just not sure what it is?

 

[GirardSpinorama]

So you have a point you've been trying to make from the beginning--but at this stage I'm just not sure what it is?

That there is nothing any dman can possibly do to surpass Karlsson if they play on an elite team.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

That there is nothing any dman can possibly do to surpass Karlsson if they play on an elite team.

Well damn... that really sucks for Makar's legacy that he gets to win cups with an elite team I wish he played for the Sabres so people could finally see how good he is.

 

[Hockeyholic]

You must be too young to have watched Bourque, Lidstrom and Potvin play.

I watched Bourque at a very young age (97-01). I watched Lidstrom. Both weren't as complete as Makar.

Never saw Potvin, Robinson, Savard, Coffey etc.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Another strawman! Going for the world record I see.

Bud you have no f***ing clue what a strawman is.

Here's the literal exchange. I asked a simple clarification question but you're so shook at your keyboard that you can't even follow your own thoughts thru the red you're seeing. Chill.

Another strawman! There it is! Gonna start calling you The Scarecrow. I never once ripped into Makar in this thread. Not once. Not once in this thread, not once in any thread on this site. In fact, I called him an elite defender. You heard me, I think he is elite defensively. I just don't think he's as good as prime Karlsson.

So Makar is elite defensively, and Karlsson was even better than that?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Bud you have no f***ing clue what a strawman is.

Here's the literal exchange. I asked a simple clarification question but you're so shook at your keyboard that you can't even follow your own thoughts thru the red you're seeing. Chill.

Evidently you don't having a f***ing clue what asking for clarification looks like, because you fabricating something I never said and then answering your own question right afterwards by insulting me is not "asking for clarification". Again, trying to be sneaky. You're going to keep getting caught, so stop trying it.

I already explained to you what I meant. Not going to do it for a second time.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That there is nothing any dman can possibly do to surpass Karlsson if they play on an elite team.

He can start by winning some Norris trophies. He can finish top ten in points. His current playoff and likely hood of smythe/cup is great.

The guy has tons of promise. There’s no denying his skill. But he’s got more to go.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

A larger sample size wouldn't change that flawed stat that you admit is poor.

Look at this comparison between Makar and Karlsson. The defensive point share for Makar is significantly higher even compared to Karlsson's peak season.

Cale Makar vs. Erik Karlsson: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Cale Makar and Erik Karlsson including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

stathead.com

Maybe because I'm on mobile, but there aren't even any defensive metrics displayed (not that I really put much faith in those one way or the other, the same reasons you dismissed the percentages can also be applied conversely to defensive metrics being highly dependent on teams and roles and linemates).

I can give it another look when I get to my laptop.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Evidently you don't having a f***ing clue what asking for clarification looks like, because you fabricating something I never said and then answering your own question right afterwards by insulting me is not "asking for clarification". Again, trying to be sneaky. You're going to keep getting caught, so stop trying it.

I already explained to you what I meant. Not going to do it for a second time.

It was a direct quote

But yeah this is like getting water out of a stone, no worries.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

It was a direct quote

But yeah this is like getting water out of a stone, no worries.

Apparently you also have no f***ing clue what a direct quote is either, because nowhere did I say "Karlsson is better defensively than Makar". In fact, since you're so concerned about my post history to the point of insulting me when I was trying to have an honest debate by calling me a "f***ing hypocrite" (that's a direct quote), I have a post in this thread saying that the difference in defense between these two is miniscule.

It's insane at how often you repeat the same trick over and over again, and then when you get a little overzealous and personally insult someone in a decent conversation, you then backpedal and act confused as to why you get a reaction.

I actually very much enjoy the debate in this thread and I respect the posters who approach it honestly. But when you start derailing things by throwing out ridiculous strawman arguments then insulting people when it's completely uncalled for, then you're going to get a pushback.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

And then we'll have to agree to disagree, because that's exactly what's happening with the myth of karlsson, it's dissonant with reality, he was not the 2017 playoff Karlsson for more than that season.

And an 86 point, +48 regular season on the way to a Conn Smythe winning Cup season surpasses anything EK has done.

Nonsense. Please stop pretending like raw points matter in this comparison. They don’t.

When Makar finishes first in blueliner scoring (something he has yet to do) and coming in 4th in scoring overall then you can talk about Karlsson… much less Bobby Orr..

It's unfortunate he never had the REAL opportunity to do more, but when you're talking about the best of the best, that matters--you can't punish Makar for being on an amazing team and for being the top driving force on that team.

And if we were talking about Bobby Orr… I’d agree. Instead we’re talking about a guy who’s just starting his career.

Again, if this thread were about potential, different conversation. But you want to say he’s already exceeded a multiple Norris winner.

No.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

He can start by winning some Norris trophies. He can finish top ten in points. His current playoff and likely hood of smythe/cup is great.

The guy has tons of promise. There’s no denying his skill. But he’s got more to go.

Makar actually finished higher PPG last year than this year and no one is going to tell you that he was better last season.

We're going back to the infinite loop again though with this. You'll never convince me Karlsson's scoring finish (where everyone pretty much scored within 5 points of each other) is more impressive than Makar's 89 points and 28 goals.

Karlsson was definitely a great dman in a weaker era; a one man superstar on a bad team. But his myth is overrated.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Makar actually finished higher PPG last year than this year and no one is going to tell you that he was better last season.

We're going back to the infinite loop again though with this. You'll never convince me Karlsson's scoring finish (where everyone pretty much scored within 5 points of each other) is more impressive than Makar's 89 points and 28 goals.

It doesn’t matter if I convince you or not.

It is absolutely more impressive. Esp when Makar is getting outpointed by a 32 year old Josi. Water is wet whether I convince you or not.

 

[Ezpz]

I don't think anyone has controlled their team so much from the blueline like Karlsson did in a long time. He was involved in everything Ottawa did on the ice. They literally accomplished nothing at any point during the game when he was on the bench. I think partly it was because their team lacked talent, the coach built the strategies around him. He led his team by 19 points in 2016. Makar was 4th on his team this year and didn't even lead dmen in scoring across the NHL(and has yet to do so).

 

[GirardSpinorama]

It doesn’t matter if I convince you or not.

It is absolutely more impressive. Esp when Makar is getting outpointed by a 32 year old Josi. Water is wet whether I convince you or not.

89 > 82, simple math. Its an absolute truth.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

89 > 82, simple math. Its an absolute truth.

If you’re 12 years old? Sure, that would pass for solid analysis.

But if you have any idea on how relative comparisons work then you know that it’s stupid to look at things that way.

When Makar is dominating his contemporaries then we can talk. Until that happens he has no business being talked about in the same breath as Karlsson much less Orr - unless it’s a discussion about potential.

 

[jmelm]

Yes, Makar is better.

Ask yourself this: if you were going into a Game 7 Stanley Cup final game today and you could pick Makar today vs Karlsson in his prime, who would you choose to help you win the game?

I would choose today’s Makar over prime EK. And what’s scary is that Makar is only going to get A LOT better from here.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

89 > 82, simple math. Its an absolute truth.

Karlsson scored more 5v5 points during that season than Makar did this year. So by your logic you must admit that Karlsson is the superior 5v5 player, no?

 

[Freudian]

I will say it again. During the 2017 playoffs, Karlsson was on the ice for 31% of his team's 5v5 GA. Makar has been on the ice for over 50%. The difference in defense between these two players is non-existent, to pretend otherwise is stupidity.

It's like you desperately trawled through the statistics and found a single thing and now you pretend it's the only metric to evaluate defenders. Have you ever heard anyone but you measure defensive prowess by % of 5on5 GA? I haven't. Because it's a really dumb way to measure it.

The reason is so obvious you probably haven't even thought about it. Goaltenders save percentage differ for players on the same team. Did I just blow your mind? In a small sample (like a single post-season) a skater might just get lucky to have a few extra saves when he's on the ice compared to his teammates. Want to guess who has the second highest 5-on-5 on ice save percentage during the 2017 post season for Ottawa and who has the second lowest on ice save percentage for Colorado 2022?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

It's like you desperately trawled through the statistics and found a single thing and now you pretend it's the only metric to evaluate defenders. Have you ever heard anyone but you measure defensive prowess by % of 5on5 GA? I haven't. Because it's a really dumb way to measure it.

The reason is so obvious you probably haven't even thought about it. Goaltenders save percentage differ for players on the same team. Did I just blow your mind? In a small sample (like a single post-season) a skater might just get lucky to have a few extra saves when he's on the ice compared to his teammates. Want to guess who has the second highest 5-on-5 on ice save percentage during the 2017 post season for Ottawa and who has the second lowest on ice save percentage for Colorado 2022?

Because after 3 rounds of hockey, Karlsson was on the ice for less GA than Makar, but people said that Karlsson benefitted from higher goaltending, so I brought up the percentages stat to provide further context that suggests Karlsson was a top defender on his team as well. And your point about goaltenders actually is funny, because Karlsson played an extra minute per game than Makar too, so theoretically the person benefitting from the smaller sample size would be Makar in this case. More ice time = more opportunities for error, right?

And I hope you realize that any other metric you bring up is also just as results oriented as the 5v5GA%. Not sure why you'd hold any other metric to a higher regard than that one. Personally I don't care about any defensive stat, I judge Karlsson and Makar to have relatively equal defensive games based entirely on watching the games, but it's funny how people have a problem with that stat for some reason.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Cale Makar's current run is the best run by a dman since Keith and Doughty's best runs.

I don’t even think those guys had a run this good. This is like Leetch in 1993.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

If you’re 12 years old? Sure, that would pass for solid analysis.

But if you have any idea on how relative comparisons work then you know that it’s stupid to look at things that way.

When Makar is dominating his contemporaries then we can talk. Until that happens he has no business being talked about in the same breath as Karlsson much less Orr - unless it’s a discussion about potential.

Lol not in the same breath as Karlsson with the shortest prime of any star dman of this generation? He was in a weak era with low spread between the high scorers. If you actually examine it closely, you'd see he wasn't much better than letang and burns production wise at his peak. He definitely wasn't as good as letang defensively. Karlsson is basically the dman version of Jamie benn. Karlsson is already surpassed by Makar and josi and hedman. Will most likely be surpassed by fox as well.

Not gonna talk about orr. No one should be in the breath of Orr, not even McDavid.