Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Lafleurs Guy]

If Colorado goes on to win a cup, it does make sense that the Makar Conn Smythe and cup would stack up against Karlsson in a head to head comparison. These are real world, pinnacle of the sport type accomplishments in a way that "playing well on a mediocre team" isn't.

I’m not saying it should be ignored. It’s a huge accomplishment. And when we look back on what should become an incredible career it will be a highlight for sure.

But in the context of this conversation, you’re comparing him to a guy who had no chance at a cup to a guy in a stacked team. All I’m saying is that he’s not better by virtue of this.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

A great individual playing on a team with other great individuals and winning is the whole point of team sports. A great individual stuck on a bad team not doing much is a waste.

Yep. Take it from a Carey Price fan, it’s sad to watch.

 

[Stephen]

I’m not saying it should be ignored. It’s a huge accomplishment. And when we look back on what should become an incredible career it will be a highlight for sure.

But in the context of this conversation, you’re comparing him to a guy who had no chance at a cup to a guy in a stacked team. All I’m saying is that he’s not better by virtue of this.

I just think there's a fallacy here where real world Cale Makar is being compared to a "what if" Karlsson.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I just think there's a fallacy here where real world Cale Makar is being compared to a "what if" Karlsson.

You’re comparing guys in completely different situations…

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Is the narrative back to that Makar is an elite defender? Did everyone conveniently forget that he was directly responsible for Tampa's 2nd goal in Game 1? If you're going to make claims that Makar is the greatest defenseman over the past 15 years because of his defending, then he can't really be making such crucial mistakes in such critical moments of games.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

The whole team has played well though. It’s not just him.

It’s incredible that they’re beating Tampa with their B players leading the way.

Well sure. But subtract Makar and tell me the Avs are nearly as good as they've been. Avs fans almost uniformly agree he's been the team's best player for a good while now.

 

[nammerus]

Is the narrative back to that Makar is an elite defender? Did everyone conveniently forget that he was directly responsible for Tampa's 2nd goal in Game 1? If you're going to make claims that Makar is the greatest defenseman over the past 15 years because of his defending, then he can't really be making such crucial mistakes in such critical moments of games.

Even the best dman in the league get walked sometimes by the elite forwards. All you can do is tip your hat.

Lidstrom has been undressed multiple times by Forsberg in the playoffs and no one bats an eye when he’s called one of the best dmen to play ever (easily top 3-5).

 

[Dominance]

Is the narrative back to that Makar is an elite defender? Did everyone conveniently forget that he was directly responsible for Tampa's 2nd goal in Game 1? If you're going to make claims that Makar is the greatest defenseman over the past 15 years because of his defending, then he can't really be making such crucial mistakes in such critical moments of games.

Really, really clutching at straws to focus on a single play where one of the top-3 playmakers in the league dangled Makar’s defense partner and he only barely failed to make the play on the resulting chance.

Makar is arguably more offensively talented than Karlsson, objectively the massively superior defender, and well on his way to having a more impressive trophy case. Deal with it.

 

[Freudian]

Is the narrative back to that Makar is an elite defender? Did everyone conveniently forget that he was directly responsible for Tampa's 2nd goal in Game 1? If you're going to make claims that Makar is the greatest defenseman over the past 15 years because of his defending, then he can't really be making such crucial mistakes in such critical moments of games.

He doesn't have to be "the greatest defenseman of the past 15 years because of his defending" to be twice the defender EK ever was. You do realize all of Karlssons career has been in the era of television and we have been able to see him defend?

I know you aren't really discussing in good faith here but lets talk about scoring chances and the playoffs. Here are the stats of Makar/Toews and some of the top defenders in the league these playoffs. Scoring chances for and against. What does this tell you about how Makar is doing defensively? I know you probably would probably prefer to look at a replay over and over again (which is a fantastic play by Kucherov to start with, so it's a pretty silly example).

Que the crickets because all you have are anecdotes. The rest of the world see what's actually happening with Makar in the playoffs. He's dominating both sides of the ice.

 

[Avsfan1921]

Is the narrative back to that Makar is an elite defender? Did everyone conveniently forget that he was directly responsible for Tampa's 2nd goal in Game 1? If you're going to make claims that Makar is the greatest defenseman over the past 15 years because of his defending, then he can't really be making such crucial mistakes in such critical moments of games.

This is a fun take, singling out a play. Why don’t we use his overtime goal on Dach and the hawks as proof that he’s the best player ever and deserves to have his number retired immediately and rename the Norris to the Makar?

 

[Hockeyholic]

It's hard to say he hasn't surpassed Karlsson.

Honestly Makar may be the most complete D since Orr. And no I'm not exaggerating.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Is the narrative back to that Makar is an elite defender? Did everyone conveniently forget that he was directly responsible for Tampa's 2nd goal in Game 1? If you're going to make claims that Makar is the greatest defenseman over the past 15 years because of his defending, then he can't really be making such crucial mistakes in such critical moments of games.

If you were to audit Karlsson like this you'd have a full time job.

What a f***ing hypocrite, and it's absolutely hilarious to see this coming full circle.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

Honestly Weber may be the most complete D since Orr. And no I'm not exaggerating.

agreed or Pronger maybe

 

[guzzy]

Is the narrative back to that Makar is an elite defender? Did everyone conveniently forget that he was directly responsible for Tampa's 2nd goal in Game 1? If you're going to make claims that Makar is the greatest defenseman over the past 15 years because of his defending, then he can't really be making such crucial mistakes in such critical moments of games.

This is literally, one of the worst takes i have ever seen in my life. Are you trying to tell me that Hedman, Bourque, Lidstrom, etc, have never made a mistake that cost a goal in their careers. Wow....just wow.

 

[Sol]

Is the narrative back to that Makar is an elite defender? Did everyone conveniently forget that he was directly responsible for Tampa's 2nd goal in Game 1? If you're going to make claims that Makar is the greatest defenseman over the past 15 years because of his defending, then he can't really be making such crucial mistakes in such critical moments of games.

To be fair, he’s definitely better than Karlsson because prime Karlsson was making crucial mistakes in critical moments of games because he was ass defensively. He’s got similar offense to Karlsson but much better defense. So yea he’s better than Prime Karlsson

 

[ANewHope]

Is the narrative back to that Makar is an elite defender? Did everyone conveniently forget that he was directly responsible for Tampa's 2nd goal in Game 1? If you're going to make claims that Makar is the greatest defenseman over the past 15 years because of his defending, then he can't really be making such crucial mistakes in such critical moments of games.

Makar is absolutely elite defensively. He like every defender out there occasionally has mistakes and gives up goals. It's not that Makar is the best defensive defensemen, he's obviously not. It's the fact that as good as he is offensively .. he's still elite defensively which is rare for the kinda player he is and how dynamic offensive he is. He's similar to EK offensively if not a little worse .. but much better defensively. Makar's playstyle is far more like a two way defensemen.

Also I get the team argument but I think people are treating these guys like wingers or something. Makar on a lesser team plays more PP minutes and shares the puck less, averages more TOI during the regular season, and doesn't have as many games where he's less aggressive/sitting back in 3rd period protecting a lead. For example game 2 vs Tampa .. alot of times he's not likely to get those 2 goals in a random regular season game. It's like the narrative that he leeched off MacKinnon was ruined once MacKinnon missed some games and Makar looked just as good. That narrative would make alot more sense if Makar wasn't considered the best player on the team by the vast majority of Avs fans.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

It's rich how people point to my post as hypocrisy. The point of my post was to point out the hypocrisy of all of you. Back in Karlsson's day, a play like that would've had multiple posts on the main forum, and being passed around as definitive proof of Karlsson's poor defensive play. It's especially rich to hear Racoon Jesus label me a hypocrite for that since that was his favorite past time on this site. But I guess he doesn't like it when the shoe is on the other foot.

I will say it again. During the 2017 playoffs, Karlsson was on the ice for 31% of his team's 5v5 GA. Makar has been on the ice for over 50%. The difference in defense between these two players is non-existent, to pretend otherwise is stupidity. Both are capable of shutting things down when they need to, and both have similar flaws in their defensive game (in front of the net namely). People loved the defensive lowlights being posted when it was Karlsson, but we're just going to ignore them when they happen to Makar. Okay, makes sense to me. Let's get some consistency is all I'm asking. We can't parrot the same garbage about Makar being "far better" defensively than Karlsson because Racoon Jesus made it his full-time job to wait for a mistake and them spamming the video in every thread on the forum, when videos like this exist as well:



The difference between me and biased posters like Racoon Jesus is that I will fully admit Makar is an elite defender most of the time. I don't believe a single misplay (even if in crucial moments, which Karlsson did not do in the playoffs) defines Makar's defensive game, nor does it define Karlsson's.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

To be fair, he’s definitely better than Karlsson because prime Karlsson was making crucial mistakes in critical moments of games because he was ass defensively. He’s got similar offense to Karlsson but much better defense. So yea he’s better than Prime Karlsson

Show me a misplay like that in 2017 (playoffs) that Karlsson made. Go ahead, I'll wait.

 

[avsfan9]

Is the narrative back to that Makar is an elite defender? Did everyone conveniently forget that he was directly responsible for Tampa's 2nd goal in Game 1? If you're going to make claims that Makar is the greatest defenseman over the past 15 years because of his defending, then he can't really be making such crucial mistakes in such critical moments of games.

If that’s the case then Victor Hedman is a terrible defensman cause he’s made a ton of mistakes over the course of these playoffs. The last two games especially.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

If that’s the case then Victor Hedman is a terrible defensman cause he’s made a ton of mistakes over the course of these playoffs. The last two games especially.

Congratulation, you understood my point. People constantly use lowlights of Karlsson's misplays to justify their baseless claims of being a terrible defender. The reality is elite defenders still have moments where they screw up. The difference between Karlsson and Makar's defensive game is miniscule, sick of people pretending it isn't.

 

[ANewHope]

Congratulation, you understood my point. People constantly use lowlights of Karlsson's misplays to justify their baseless claims of being a terrible defender. The reality is elite defenders still have moments where they screw up. The difference between Karlsson and Makar's defensive game is miniscule, sick of people pretending it isn't.

Ignoring who's good/bad etc. because obviously we aren't going to agree on it .. I think there playstyles are just different. Makar coming in was supposed to be EK .. but he really isn't. In fact I think a big reason why EK is slightly better offensively than Makar is because he's more aggressive/confident. I think that's the biggest knock on Makar personally ... he can just defer offensively or not be as aggressive as he needs to be. There's alot of times where he needs to take a page out of EK's book and attack and doesn't. The SH goal last night was a good example of him doing that.

Just in terms of playstyle Makar is far more of a two way defensemen. I think people see his highlights, or how he walks the line and just the dynamic skill and think it's an all game thing when it isn't. He has long stretches where he's just sitting back and committed to defending. He's far more of a player that picks his spots/moments vs EK who taking the puck and going. For example there were times when Makar was paired with Graves and Graves would join the play over Makar, and similar with Toews. When paired with EK your sitting back 90% of the time.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Ignoring who's good/bad etc. because obviously we aren't going to agree on it .. I think there playstyles are just different. Makar coming in was supposed to be EK .. but he really isn't. In fact I think a big reason why EK is slightly better offensively than Makar is because he's more aggressive/confident. I think that's the biggest knock on Makar personally ... he can just defer offensively or not be as aggressive as he needs to be. There's alot of times where he needs to take a page out of EK's book and attack and doesn't. The SH goal last night was a good example of him doing that.

Just in terms of playstyle Makar is far more of a two way defensemen. I think people see his highlights, or how he walks the line and just the dynamic skill and think it's an all game thing when it isn't. He has long stretches where he's just sitting back and committed to defending. He's far more of a player that picks his spots/moments vs EK who taking the puck and going. For example there were times when Makar was paired with Graves and Graves would join the play over Makar, and similar with Toews. When paired with EK your sitting back 90% of the time.

I agree their playstyles at different, but only most of the time. I have seen many times Karlsson be able to shut things down, sit back and protect a lead. And that definitely is also highly dependent on the difference in the two teams they play on. But Karlsson was just as much Ottawa's #1 choice when having to defend a lead, him and his partner Methot.

 

[Njfj]

Recency biases are fun.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Well sure. But subtract Makar and tell me the Avs are nearly as good as they've been. Avs fans almost uniformly agree he's been the team's best player for a good while now.

In this series so far? The Avs would be winning without him in the lineup.

In the playoffs overall? Totally different story.

 

[Sol]

So this is what happens when you have a great defenseman in the western conference it seems. All of the propped up east coast “elite” talentless hacks are still favored more. Amazing.