Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Lafleurs Guy]

Lots of highlights for Colorado but it a 2 on 1 goal and undressing of Victor Hedman and a PP snipe Ovechkin style from a defenseman doesn’t stand out, I dunno.

Like I said, superstar players can be invisible for most of the game and then capitalize on what they’re given. He was invisible in game one and most of game two. But his stat sheet for last night will look good.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Hold up… He’s been outstanding in the playoffs. A monster actually. And the smythe is his to lose. I’d never disagree with that.

I do think Tampa has done a good job of keeping him under wraps though. That’s all I was saying in that front.

Idk Tampa hasn't really been able to generate much in the first 2 games. Makar has a big part to play in that. Small sample size but still.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Idk Tampa hasn't really been able to generate much in the first 2 games. Makar has a big part to play in that. Small sample size but still.

The whole team has played well though. It’s not just him.

It’s incredible that they’re beating Tampa with their B players leading the way.

 

[wetcoast]

Makar would look like Tyson Barrie on the Ottawa Senators

You must be Tyson Barries mom or something I'm guessing?

 

[J bo Jeans]

This Avs team is carrying Makar. Buddy scores the 6th and 7th goals

True Makar is a passenger leading his team in points. Should have 30 already avs should trade him.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Remember when people were saying he was better than every defencemen in the league by a mile and then he got cut from team Sweden? I think he was a great player but he’s not Cale Makar who is the best D since Lidstrom and Orr.

You’re confusing Karlsson with Hedman.

 

[wetcoast]

I'm not sure how accurate that statement can be. Erik Karlsson was far and beyond the best offensive weapon for the Senators. Cale Makar is one star among a bunch containing guys like Mackinnon, Rantanen, Kadri, and a strong defense to play the rest of the way.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. Prime Karlsson with he current Avs team would be a beast! Let's see if Makar can avoid injuries, as opposed to Karlsson.

Funny we saw the argument before in that what a beast Karlsson would be if he went to a better team and then we saw him play in the shadow of a Dman 2 years older.

Kadri is also such a star right?

I guess among EK fans.

Would prime Karlsson also become much better defensivley playing with the currnet Avs?

Would he get to play 27 MPG?

Would they start counting 4 points for every goal scored as all of those stars would be getting points on the Avs goals still right?

This argument is extremely weak, yet it keeps getting trotted out.

Also its very convenient to leave out that Makar could very well have 2 Norris trophies already if he only played around 10 more games over the last 2 seasons as he was really close to the Norris last year and if he doesn't win this year then he will be extremely close as well.

Not to mention he is a front runner for the Conn Smythe, so ya that is among all of those stars so that's the 2 sided sword here.

 

[ponder]

They’re similar, but Makar has WAY more help. In Ottawa, the best team Karlsson ever played on was a 44 win team (twice). Once was his rookie year (2009/10), when he was definitely not in his prime, and the other time was a garbage team that prime Karlsson dragged to the conference finals (2016/17), despite playing through a brutal injury (he was never really the same again after that - still had the puck skills but his skating never truly recovered). Makar has played on nothing but stacked Avs teams so far.

Makar is amazing, and putting up unreal numbers, but he has WAY more help, and it’s also a higher scoring era now. I’m not at all sure Makar outperforms Karlsson on the 2011/12 to 2016/17 Sens, which was Karlsson’s prime IMO.

 

[wetcoast]

Yep there are great players in every era, including the dead puck era.
You said there were no players capable of 100 points, when scoring was obviously down. EK65 was 5 points from an Art Ross and led league in assists, first time since Bobby Orr.

He didn't say the part in bold so you are building a strawman here and it's a really bad look.

 

[Stephen]

The whole team has played well though. It’s not just him.

It’s incredible that they’re beating Tampa with their B players leading the way.

I think we need to take a step back for a moment and realize that great players who play on great teams who win a lot of games in pursuit of a championship is the gold standard for what sports should be, and that a statement like "well Lafleur was great but the whole Canadiens team was great too" shouldn't be used an asterisk.

The whole idea that Karlsson was dominant while playing on a weaker team shouldn't make him better.

 

[wetcoast]

If Colorado wins the cup, Makar will win the Smythe and deservedly so.

It's been interesting watching the finals though. Mackinnon has been pretty invisible and to a lesser extent, so has Makar.

Neither one of them were really effective offensively in game one. In game two they both had a nice chance at the end of the first together but beyond that I barely noticed Mackinnon. As for Makar, he came on at the end but it wasn't one of his better games.

But that's the thing with great players, they can have a mediocre or even a "bad" game and still pot a couple of points.

What's really scary for Tampa is that Colorado has been the better team WITHOUT their two best players playing at their best.

If you are suggesting that Makar was mediocre or had a bad game in game one then you didn't watch and are only raw stat counting.

He is the frontrunner for the Conn Smythe right now and deservedly so.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The whole idea that Karlsson was dominant while playing on a weaker team shouldn't make him better.

It doesn't make him better and I never said it did.

But if you're going to say one guy's better because he has a Smythe or a cup, that doesn't make sense either. Not when one guy was playing for a club that would be in last place without him.

 

[wetcoast]

How much worse would the Avs be with a 96pt Josi in their lineup today? Betting man says not very. Again its not necissarily a slight on Makar, I just need to see more years of him being clearly ahead of his peers before I say he made the same kind of impact on the game and his team that EK did.

Imo you still cant sub in any player for peak level Karlsson on that same Sens roster and get anything close to the same results as he did. No other modern day player would have won the same trophies or reached the same heights (as a team) that he did if they were put in the same position at the same age.

We will never know if Makar can carry the burden of being his teams lone superstar and best offensive weapon (by such a wide margin that opposing teams would focus all of their defensive resources on him) - AND do it as a smaller dman thats playing the most minutes of TOI than any non-goalkeeper in the entire NHL...

So to me Its somewhat unfair to both of them today because they are/were both in unique situations to shine at different points in their careers. And Makar doesnt get need to be that same player/style of superstar that the Sens needed EK to be for them. to win

Across all sports it can be said that some players thrive at being "the MAN". And there are other all time greats that thrive when the man was there to take the spotlight off them while they went to work and did their damage.

So that leaves you with results and comparisons to your peers to judge them upon. And Makar needs to smoke his peers/rank among them for several more years for me before he takes anyones place in hockey history.

Funny that the Sens in 12-13 managed to make the playoffs with EK (fresh off his first Norris win) only playing in 17 of their 48 regular games eh?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If you are suggesting that Makar was mediocre or had a bad game in game one then you didn't watch and are only raw stat counting.

“Bad” game? No. But I’m saying he hasn’t really stood out this series. I’m saying for him, it’s been mediocre so far.

He is the frontrunner for the Conn Smythe right now and deservedly so.

Agreed. And I actually think he might win it even if Tampa comes back. Tampa has been pretty inconsistent for much of the playoffs. Nobody is playing like they have in the past two cup runs. And even if Makar has a mediocre series, he’s been so good coming in I think it’s his to lose.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Funny that the Sens in 12-13 managed to make the playoffs with EK (fresh off his first Norris win) only playing in 17 of their 48 regular games eh?

They were a crap team. If I remember right, their goalie had a career year.

Please don’t try to compare the clubs as though they’re the same.

 

[Freudian]

Sometimes playing on a good team helps a players production and sometimes playing for a bad team can help a players production. They get as much ice time as they want, they get to play the full PP every time and basically the team will run the offense through that player. Yzerman before Detroit became good is one example, Olli Jokinen in Florida is another. If we look through EK's numbers his P/GP in Ottawa is slightly higher the years they missed the playoffs than the years they made it.

Colorado being a high scoring team obviously helps Makar, but at the same time he is one of the big reasons for that.

2017-18: 3.11 GF/GP (10th in the league)
2018-19: 3.15 GF/GP (10th in the league)
2019-20 (when he joined the team): 3.37 GF/GP (4th in the league)
2020-21: 3.52 GF/GP (1st in the league)
2021-22: 3.76 GF/GP (4th in the league)

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Sometimes playing on a good team helps a players production and sometimes playing for a bad team can help a players production. They get as much ice time as they want, they get to play the full PP every time and basically the team will run the offense through that player. Yzerman before Detroit became good is one example, Olli Jokinen in Florida is another. If we look through EK's numbers his P/GP in Ottawa is slightly higher the years they missed the playoffs than the years they made it.

Colorado being a high scoring team obviously helps Makar, but at the same time he is one of the big reasons for that.

2017-18: 3.11 GF/GP (10th in the league)
2018-19: 3.15 GF/GP (10th in the league)
2019-20 (when he joined the team): 3.37 GF/GP (4th in the league)
2020-21: 3.52 GF/GP (1st in the league)
2021-22: 3.76 GF/GP (4th in the league)

I’m pretty sure Karlsson would’ve preferred playing with Mackinnon than Hoffman. And you sure as hell aren’t winning a cup with that crap team.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Like I said, superstar players can be invisible for most of the game and then capitalize on what they’re given. He was invisible in game one and most of game two. But his stat sheet for last night will look good.

What’s this about Makar being invisible?

He’s still tilting the ice when he’s not producing (though he scored twice in game two).



He’s a defenceman and his commitment to that side of the puck is one of the things that separates him from the Roman Josi’s of the world.

 

[Freudian]

I’m pretty sure Karlsson would’ve preferred playing with Mackinnon than Hoffman. And you sure as hell aren’t winning a cup with that crap team.

I'm sure EK would have liked playing on better teams because having a bigger chance to win is fun, but he wouldn't have played 27.5 minutes a game on a contender. He wouldn't play on a team that runs the entire offense through him.

Just assuming that if you take a high scoring player on a team and put him on a better team his offense will explode is more a fantasy than a reality. Trade deadline shows this year after year.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

What’s this about Makar being invisible?

He’s still tilting the ice when he’s not producing (though he scored twice in game two).



He’s a defenceman and his commitment to that side of the puck is one of the things that separates him from the Roman Josi’s of the world.

Yes, but the whole team pounded the crap out of Tampa. I’m not saying he had a bad game, but the Lightning have done a good job containing him and Mackinnon. Too bad for them they can’t stop their b and c lines.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I'm sure EK would have liked playing on better teams because having a bigger chance to win is fun, but he wouldn't have played 27.5 minutes a game on a contender. He wouldn't play on a team that runs the entire offense through him.

Just assuming that if you take a high scoring player on a team and put him on a better team his offense will explode is more a fantasy than a reality. Trade deadline shows this year after year.

Do you think Marcel Dionne would’ve scored more or less on those Hab teams? Do you think Lafleur would’ve still scored what he did on another club?

Your teammates help to create opportunity for you. Karlsson had to generate it almost entirely himself.

Honestly though, the biggest advantage is that you have a chance to compete in the postseason. No superstar has ever led a crap team to a cup. Some came close but they all needed good teams.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Yes, but the whole team pounded the crap out of Tampa. I’m not saying he had a bad game, but the Lightning have done a good job containing him and Mackinnon. Too bad for them they can’t stop their b and c lines.

Cale Makar has two goals in two games and is containing them. That’s what you’re not understanding.

I don’t get why he gets such little credit for his defensive game. He’s actually become an amazing penalty killer these playoffs as well.

 

[Stephen]

It doesn't make him better and I never said it did.

But if you're going to say one guy's better because he has a Smythe or a cup, that doesn't make sense either. Not when one guy was playing for a club that would be in last place without him.

If Colorado goes on to win a cup, it does make sense that the Makar Conn Smythe and cup would stack up against Karlsson in a head to head comparison. These are real world, pinnacle of the sport type accomplishments in a way that "playing well on a mediocre team" isn't.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Cale Makar has two goals in two games and is containing them.

I don’t get why he gets such little credit for his defensive game. He’s actually become an amazing penalty killer these playoffs as well.

Defensively he’s been rock solid. But I think that goes for his whole team.

 

[Stephen]

Do you think Marcel Dionne would’ve scored more or less on those Hab teams? Do you think Lafleur would’ve still scored what he did on another club?

Your teammates help to create opportunity for you. Karlsson had to generate it almost entirely himself.

Honestly though, the biggest advantage is that you have a chance to compete in the postseason. No superstar has ever led a crap team to a cup. Some came close but they all needed good teams.

A great individual playing on a team with other great individuals and winning is the whole point of team sports. A great individual stuck on a bad team not doing much is a waste.