Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Lafleurs Guy]

Prime Karlsson is like the 4th best player on these Avs. He wouldn't stand out on this team.

Behind Lekonen right?

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Behind Lekonen right?

Is this a joke? Lehkonen is miles above prime Karlsson as a two way player. Of course he is behind lehkonen.

 

[TheBeard]

Like clockwork this threads gets restarted when he scores a couple goals in a game.

 

[Rengorlex]

Like clockwork this threads gets restarted when he scores a couple goals in a game.

A couple of goals in the SC finals against the back to back champions.

Makar is better than Karlsson.

 

[AvroArrow]

Like clockwork this threads gets restarted when he scores a couple goals in a game.

Probably because what he's showing us now is something most of us have never seen in our lifetime. This kind of offensive talent from a D-man is unheard of, hands down the best offensive D-man I have ever seen in my lifetime. Karlsson was phenomenal in his prime but nowhere near this level.

 

[Buresflyingelbow]

Makar is on another level right now. Hard to argue he doesn’t bring more than prime Karlsson at his current play.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

You can probably make it official after he wins the conn smythe.

 

[Samsquanch]

A couple of goals in the SC finals against the back to back champions.

Makar is better than Karlsson.

Call me crazy, but scoring a couple of goals - like the 4th and 5th goals in a 7-0 blowout - a game where his incredibly talented team was in firm control of the game from start to finish - does not move the needle in this discussion for me.....

If anything it highlights why so many people are confused that Makar hasn't been knighted by the princess of Canada yet (as is tradition), or declared the obvious winner in this debate.

Like seriously its impressive as f*** what Makar is doing. And hes on pace to have an even more impressive career than Karlsson one day if he can keep this pace up. The ball is in his court - hes made the most and more of his opportunity thus far.

But Im still not convinced at all that the numbers hes putting up this post season are more valuable to his team than what Karlsson or even Heiskanen did in their losing causes for their own teams.

And I think the AVs could still be in the same spot they are right now with a handful of other dmen in the game. Like your kidding yourself if you say that Roman Josi would be a huge downgrade this season to the Avs if you subbed him in for Makar. Josi absolutely had a better regular season than Makar did, and on a team that was laughably much less talented or impressive.

The same thing could not be said for the Karlsson on the Sens in their 2017 run. Nor could the version of Josi today be counted on to carry a team. Nor could peak 30g Burns, norris stealin' Due Doughty, Weber, Chara, or even peak Duncan Keith could never be expected to carry a middling team that far on their own shoulders.

Like pretend that your teams best forwards are Bobby Ryan (the post ducks/already in rapid decline version of Ryan), Marc Brassard (post NYR and a shadow of the Brass-god version his former fans loved), Mark Stone (the playoff dud version that the Sens and VGK get when all the chips are down), and Kyle (Im about to become the modern day Wade Redden) Turris. were your teams best forwards. And then ask yourself how good would Makar/anyone alive have to be to carry them that far on their shoulders, from the blue line?

I

 

[Panthaz89]

Call me crazy, but scoring a couple of goals - like the 4th and 5th goals in a 7-0 blowout - a game where his incredibly talented team was in firm control of the game from start to finish - does not move the needle in this discussion for me.....

If anything it highlights why so many people are confused that Makar hasn't been knighted by the queen and declared the obvious winner in here yet either.

Like seriously its impressive as f*** what Makar is doing. And hes on pace to have an even more impressive career than Karlsson one day if he can keep this up. The ball is in his court.

But Im still not convinced at all that the numbers hes putting up this post season are more valuable to his team than what Karlsson or even Heiskanen did in their losing causes for their own teams.

And I think the AVs could still be in the same spot they are right now with a handful of other dmen in the game. Like your kidding yourself if you say that Roman Josi would be a huge downgrade this season to the Avs if you subbed him in for Makar. Josi absolutely had a better regular season than Makar did, and on a team that was laughably much less talented or impressive.

The same thing could not be said for the Karlsson on the Sens in their 2017 run. Not Josi today, nor the version of Josi that Karlsson dueled with each season either. Not even close tbh. And I have serious doubts that even Makar at his peak would have the ability to carry a team like the Sens by himself for as many years as EK did.

Makar has scored a ton of timely goals in this playoff run alone and he's a freaking Dman. Should he have let the Lightning get hope and let them score on the PP. Nope he twisted the dagger in their back with a shorty.

 

[Samsquanch]

Makar has scored a ton of timely goals in this playoff run alone and he's a freaking Dman. Should he have let the Lightning get hope and let them score on the PP. Nope he twisted the dagger in their back with a shorty.

How much worse would the Avs be with a 96pt Josi in their lineup today? Betting man says not very. Again its not necissarily a slight on Makar, I just need to see more years of him being clearly ahead of his peers before I say he made the same kind of impact on the game and his team that EK did.

Imo you still cant sub in any player for peak level Karlsson on that same Sens roster and get anything close to the same results as he did. No other modern day player would have won the same trophies or reached the same heights (as a team) that he did if they were put in the same position at the same age.

We will never know if Makar can carry the burden of being his teams lone superstar and best offensive weapon (by such a wide margin that opposing teams would focus all of their defensive resources on him) - AND do it as a smaller dman thats playing the most minutes of TOI than any non-goalkeeper in the entire NHL...

So to me Its somewhat unfair to both of them today because they are/were both in unique situations to shine at different points in their careers. And Makar doesnt get need to be that same player/style of superstar that the Sens needed EK to be for them. to win

Across all sports it can be said that some players thrive at being "the MAN". And there are other all time greats that thrive when the man was there to take the spotlight off them while they went to work and did their damage.

So that leaves you with results and comparisons to your peers to judge them upon. And Makar needs to smoke his peers/rank among them for several more years for me before he takes anyones place in hockey history.

 

[hohosaregood]

If prime Karlsson was playing right now, no one would care about him

 

[SillyRabbit]

Call me crazy, but scoring a couple of goals - like the 4th and 5th goals in a 7-0 blowout - a game where his incredibly talented team was in firm control of the game from start to finish - does not move the needle in this discussion for me.....

If anything it highlights why so many people are confused that Makar hasn't been knighted by the princess of Canada yet (as is tradition), or declared the obvious winner in this debate.

Like seriously its impressive as f*** what Makar is doing. And hes on pace to have an even more impressive career than Karlsson one day if he can keep this pace up. The ball is in his court - hes made the most and more of his opportunity thus far.

But Im still not convinced at all that the numbers hes putting up this post season are more valuable to his team than what Karlsson or even Heiskanen did in their losing causes for their own teams.

And I think the AVs could still be in the same spot they are right now with a handful of other dmen in the game. Like your kidding yourself if you say that Roman Josi would be a huge downgrade this season to the Avs if you subbed him in for Makar. Josi absolutely had a better regular season than Makar did, and on a team that was laughably much less talented or impressive.

The same thing could not be said for the Karlsson on the Sens in their 2017 run. Nor could the version of Josi today be counted on to carry a team. Nor could peak 30g Burns, norris stealin' Due Doughty, Weber, Chara, or even peak Duncan Keith could never be expected to carry a middling team that far on their own shoulders.

Like pretend that your teams best forwards are Bobby Ryan (the post ducks/already in rapid decline version of Ryan), Marc Brassard (post NYR and a shadow of the Brass-god version his former fans loved), Mark Stone (the playoff dud version that the Sens and VGK get when all the chips are down), and Kyle (Im about to become the modern day Wade Redden) Turris. were your teams best forwards. And then ask yourself how good would Makar/anyone alive have to be to carry them that far on their shoulders, from the blue line?

I

You make good points but the timing is in favour of Makar.

If the roles were reversed and Makar had done this in 2017 and Karlsson was carrying the Sens to one goal of the finals this season, way more people would be arguing for Karlsson.

Recency bias is a major factor in HFBoards discussions.

 

[Chabot84]

Without Erik Karlsson there would be no Cale Makar

 

[Stamkos4life]

Cale is definitely better already.

 

[Adrianopolous]

A couple of goals in the SC finals against the back to back champions.

Makar is better than Karlsson.

This Avs team is carrying Makar. Buddy scores the 6th and 7th goals

 

[Freudian]

This Avs team is carrying Makar. Buddy scores the 6th and 7th goals

Makar in his fourth playoff has more points (55P in 51GP) than EK has in his career (53P 67GP). Getting close to doubling him in goals scored in the post-season.

But I guess EK only scored game winners. Like with all other aspects of the legend of EK65, it only gets better with time. There are even people claiming he's a very good defender these days.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Makar is very easily the better player

 

[TheRarestDangles]

I think Makar is superb. I think he could turn out to be the best blueliner since Lidstrom. He's not at his peak yet and will improve. I like him a lot.

But thread titles like this invite a pushback. He has to prove it. He hasn't done this yet. And when I hear people talk about how awesome he's been in the finals... I'm watching these games too man. He really hasn't been that great. YES his stat line tonight will look fantastic. But he really didn't pour it on until late in the game. He hasn't really been the player he can be.

And btw, I really like Mackinnon too. He's been invisible.

Makar just did a very good job at defending a nearly unstoppable McDavid in the previous series, has almost entirely stymied Tampa's offense when he's on the ice in the 2 Games to start the finals, scored 2 goals in a Stanley Cup final game, and is only behind Bobby Orr in playoff points per game in the playoffs--and you say he has more to prove? What happens when he wins the Conn Smythe, a Norris, a Stanley Cup, ect... My dude, I think this is the definition of 'proving it' at the highest possible level.

And you say guys like him and Mack are 'invisible' but chip in lucky goals/points despite playing poorly/average? I don't get it. They produce and they're lucky; they don't produce and they're invisible. Not sure what it will require for you to take a bow and appreciate Makar's run. And if you know hockey (which I assume you do) you know that Makar is anything but 'unnoticeable' even when he isn't producing.

 

[triggrman]

I don’t see how anyone could think Larlsson was ever close to this good. He continues to be one of the most overrated players on Hfboards

Makar is way beyond Karlsson

 

[Adrianopolous]

Makar in his fourth playoff has more points (55P in 51GP) than EK has in his career (53P 67GP). Getting close to doubling him in goals scored in the post-season.

But I guess EK only scored game winners. Like with all other aspects of the legend of EK65, it only gets better with time. There are even people claiming he's a very good defender these days.

Colorado is carrying Makar

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Yes. Karlsson was never a great defensive player, Makar is. + Makar is just as good if not better offensively.

I don’t see how anyone could think Larlsson was ever close to this good. He continues to be one of the most overrated players on Hfboards

Makar is way beyond Karlsson

Remember when people were saying he was better than every defencemen in the league by a mile and then he got cut from team Sweden? I think he was a great player but he’s not Cale Makar who is the best D since Lidstrom and Orr.

 

[Stephen]

The whole team stomped Tampa. Makar did not stand out.

Yes, he scored two goals. As i said, superstars can play medicore games and still produce.

Lots of highlights for Colorado but it a 2 on 1 goal and undressing of Victor Hedman and a PP snipe Ovechkin style from a defenseman doesn’t stand out, I dunno.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Lots of highlights for Colorado but it a 2 on 1 goal and undressing of Victor Hedman and a PP snipe Ovechkin style from a defenseman doesn’t stand out, I dunno.

2 goals snooze. These are clearly takes from people who only watch the western conference in the finals.

 

[abo9]

You make good points but the timing is in favour of Makar.

If the roles were reversed and Makar had done this in 2017 and Karlsson was carrying the Sens to one goal of the finals this season, way more people would be arguing for Karlsson.

Recency bias is a major factor in HFBoards discussions.

People on HFboards looooove to value/devalue players based on their playoff success.

For what it's worth NHL GM's do too so I can't really fault fans for doing it though.


So Makar has timing AND team success going for him. With the individual numbers being kinda close it's not surprising to see a ton of "Makar AINEC" when in reality it's a close discussion

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Makar just did a very good job at defending a nearly unstoppable McDavid in the previous series, has almost entirely stymied Tampa's offense when he's on the ice in the 2 Games to start the finals, scored 2 goals in a Stanley Cup final game, and is only behind Bobby Orr in playoff points per game in the playoffs--and you say he has more to prove? What happens when he wins the Conn Smythe, a Norris, a Stanley Cup, ect... My dude, I think this is the definition of 'proving it' at the highest possible level.

And you say guys like him and Mack are 'invisible' but chip in lucky goals/points despite playing poorly/average? I don't get it. They produce and they're lucky; they don't produce and they're invisible. Not sure what it will require for you to take a bow and appreciate Makar's run. And if you know hockey (which I assume you do) you know that Makar is anything but 'unnoticeable' even when he isn't producing.

Hold up… He’s been outstanding in the playoffs. A monster actually. And the smythe is his to lose. I’d never disagree with that.

I do think Tampa has done a good job of keeping him under wraps though. That’s all I was saying in that front.