Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Gatorbait19]

No he never was. His peak performance was much too short to ever be considered a great. He was an amazing defender but no long term consistency

It’s more accurate to say Karlsson was the best player Ottawa ever had.

Ottawa fans are kind of using the rise of Makar to reintroduce their Karlsson fables

Yea it’s a tough evaluating a guy like EK because of his injuries, although I would say he was great during his 2011-2017 stretch. However, just because he was great during that time (or that stretch was an all time great run for a dman), doesn’t mean he was a top 2-3 player in the world.

At this point, while Cale hasn’t had the opportunity to put together a 5-6 year stretch as good as EK as of yet (although he’s well on his way), I think in answering the specific question of the thread - whether Cale’s passed a prime EK - the answer is yes after the all time great year Cale had.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I mean, you can only assume it takes some time for any player to adapt to a new system. He had 10 points in his 20 first games. One might think that could be as a result of adapting to a new team and everything that comes with it. From there, leading up to his injury, he had 35 points in 32 games. Sure, that's a bit of nitpicking, but still. He was on a tear before that injury.

So again, the argument comes down to what he does in a small sample size.

It's not nitpicking, that's that people expect everyone to pretend that sample sizes of 17 and 32 games are the 'real' EK and not the guy who he is the rest of the time. "yeah but he was playing hurt," "yeah but the team sucked,' he gets more alibis than any other dman and some people expect everyone to accept that we should extrapolate that small sample size to show who he would be elsewhere...but the point is he DID play with a better team and it didn't change much in his game if anything. So we don't need these constant 'what if' hypotheticals where we're supposed to accept all of the possible upside and none of the possible downside.

 

[umma gumma]

So again, the argument comes down to what he does in a small sample size.

It's not nitpicking, that's that people expect everyone to pretend that sample sizes of 17 and 32 games are the 'real' EK and not the guy who he is the rest of the time. "yeah but he was playing hurt," "yeah but the team sucked,' he gets more alibis than any other dman and some people expect everyone to accept that we should extrapolate that small sample size to show who he would be elsewhere...but the point is he DID play with a better team and it didn't change much in his game if anything. So we don't need these constant 'what if' hypotheticals where we're supposed to accept all of the possible upside and none of the possible downside.

Why are you here? No one here is talking about Due Doughty. Are you simply here to make sure Karlsson's tires don't get pumped too much? Geez. Still bitter after all of these years. Let it go.

Its funny how you take issue with sample sizes (Karlsson's 2017) but have no problem with Makar's playoff run this year which consists of only a few more games. No...no bias whatsoever.

Its common knowledge Karlsson was not the same player after his ankle surgery. Just because you pretend it didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't.

I suggest you find a thread on Doughty and bang your drum there. Get a new head for it too; the old one is worn and stretched and will no longer hold it's note.

 

[elmaco]

Yes he has.

 

[hohosaregood]

Karlsson's never gonna win a Conn Smythe, that's for sure.

 

[wetcoast]

Why are you here? No one here is talking about Due Doughty. Are you simply here to make sure Karlsson's tires don't get pumped too much? Geez. Still bitter after all of these years. Let it go.

Its funny how you take issue with sample sizes (Karlsson's 2017) but have no problem with Makar's playoff run this year which consists of only a few more games. No...no bias whatsoever.

Its common knowledge Karlsson was not the same player after his ankle surgery. Just because you pretend it didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't.

I suggest you find a thread on Doughty and bang your drum there. Get a new head for it too; the old one is worn and stretched and will no longer hold it's note.

You are right the poster didn't talk about that player only EK in his post.

Sounds like he might be living rent free?

The poster made valid points that have been brought up by others.

 

[HockeyWooot]

At this stage of his career I think he may have already, but certainly is debatable.

Over the coming years I think it will unanimously be a yes.

Peak Karlsson was fantastic though probably a top 3 player in the world, he carried that 2017 team on his back one win from the finals with a Conn Smythe worthy performance.

Makar though is a special player, knock on wood he stays healthy I think he’ll sustain that level of play over a longer time. Incredible.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Why are you here? No one here is talking about Due Doughty. Are you simply here to make sure Karlsson's tires don't get pumped too much? Geez. Still bitter after all of these years. Let it go.

Its funny how you take issue with sample sizes (Karlsson's 2017) but have no problem with Makar's playoff run this year which consists of only a few more games. No...no bias whatsoever.

Its common knowledge Karlsson was not the same player after his ankle surgery. Just because you pretend it didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't.

I suggest you find a thread on Doughty and bang your drum there. Get a new head for it too; the old one is worn and stretched and will no longer hold it's note.

Yeah, the attempt at a personal attack over valid points is definitely a you problem, not a me problem

when you're done seeing red, try to see the quoted post trail--the sample size stuff is about extrapolating his performance to the rest of his game. I don't have any issue with people trying to sell 2017 as 'peak karlsson,' I DO have a problem with people trying to sell 'peak Karlsson' as 'common Karlsson.' No one is really doing that with Makar but they kind of can't given he's consistently trended up for his career this far. Maybe he takes a little step back with some inconsistencies next year--heck, I'd say that might even be likely given his nuclear level of play. But this idea that we're just supposed to accept that EK was always that guy is one that we're not going to agree on, ever, given his inconsistencies--whatever the reason--were what held him back (relatively). So get over it.

I'm not pretending EK's surgery didn't happen and it's very unfortunate that we (and he) were robbed of that. However, actual performance happened independently of these often-peddled fantasyland performances, and you can't continue to discount that he DID play on a better team and we have actual results from that.

But if you're so triggered by the appearance of my username that you can't even respond to this stuff without your inhaler, feel free to ignore me. No one will continue to be upset except you.

 

[TheBeard]

Why is this thread still going? It’s just devolved into a pissing contest now.

 

[TheUnusedCrayon]

Good analysis and thanks for the rundown. In line with my post/comment/question, my view is that while Karlsson was probably the best defenseman of the 2010s and arguably a generational dman, very few ppl outside Ottawa probably considered him to be the best player or a top 2-3 player in the world.

Meanwhile, many non-Avs fans/ppl do consider Cale to be at least a top 2-3 guy in the world, with a (very) small contingent saying it’s possible or arguable he’s the best player in the world (I disagree there and think Mcdave is obviously still no. 1). One other aspect that stuck out to me from the 2017 thread is the fact that when EK was compared to the other top dmen of all time, he was compared to Potvin, Lidstrom, Coffey etc. but never Orr.

However, the general consensus when Cale is compared to the top dmen, ppl skip right by Potvin/Lidstrom/Coffey and go straight to Orr. I think the fact that Gretzky of all ppl even said that Cale is the best dman he’s seen since Orr truly speaks volumes.

I remember pretty vividly hockey panels all of the time talking about how Karlsson was the best player in the league at that time (I disagreed then because I thought Crosby was) lots of times. I also thought his defense wasn't quite good enough but his offensive production was something unseen for a very long time.

With that said, I think Cale Makar's defense is still severely overrated. Is he capable as a dman? Yes. Obviously. But if you put him on a weak team I think he would be ousted a lot. You can even look at Tampa, they victimized him 5 on 5 and he was out there for a lottttt of goals 5 v 5. He ended up being a minus player against Tampa Bay. For a team that only had to play 20 games in the post season averaging nearly half a game, you'd expect better numbers. However, his defense did improve a lot since the season before however and I anticipate he will turn out to be a decent defender but he overcommits A LOT on defense. Once he learns to be more positionally sound he has all of the tools to be good.

I don't think Karlsson was good defensively, but I also don't think neither is Cale. And Karlsson was better in his prime offensively on a much much weaker team.

 

[yeaher]

I remember pretty vividly hockey panels all of the time talking about how Karlsson was the best player in the league at that time (I disagreed then because I thought Crosby was) lots of times. I also thought his defense wasn't quite good enough but his offensive production was something unseen for a very long time.

With that said, I think Cale Makar's defense is still severely overrated. Is he capable as a dman? Yes. Obviously. But if you put him on a weak team I think he would be ousted a lot. You can even look at Tampa, they victimized him 5 on 5 and he was out there for a lottttt of goals 5 v 5. He ended up being a minus player against Tampa Bay. For a team that only had to play 20 games in the post season averaging nearly half a game, you'd expect better numbers. However, his defense did improve a lot since the season before however and I anticipate he will turn out to be a decent defender but he overcommits A LOT on defense. Once he learns to be more positionally sound he has all of the tools to be good.

I don't think Karlsson was good defensively, but I also don't think neither is Cale. And Karlsson was better in his prime offensively on a much much weaker team.

Being a minus player v TB is ok as D1 when you score a couple of PP and SH goals and get a few unlucky bounces and bad gk too. That goal in game 6 is blamed on him wtf, it just happened MacK gets shit for it too. Unlucky bounce perfect pass goal. A team as good as Tampa do that.

 

[Buck Naked]

So again, the argument comes down to what he does in a small sample size.

It's not nitpicking, that's that people expect everyone to pretend that sample sizes of 17 and 32 games are the 'real' EK and not the guy who he is the rest of the time. "yeah but he was playing hurt," "yeah but the team sucked,' he gets more alibis than any other dman and some people expect everyone to accept that we should extrapolate that small sample size to show who he would be elsewhere...but the point is he DID play with a better team and it didn't change much in his game if anything. So we don't need these constant 'what if' hypotheticals where we're supposed to accept all of the possible upside and none of the possible downside.

That's usually what happens with Swedish Dmen it seems.

Being a minus player v TB is ok as D1 when you score a couple of PP and SH goals and get a few unlucky bounces and bad gk too. That goal in game 6 is blamed on him wtf, it just happened MacK gets shit for it too. Unlucky bounce perfect pass goal. A team as good as Tampa do that.

Wasn't he like 0-7 against their top line 5v5? The finals are not a good sample when it comes to proving Makar's greatness.

 

[umma gumma]

Yeah, the attempt at a personal attack over valid points is definitely a you problem, not a me problem

when you're done seeing red, try to see the quoted post trail--the sample size stuff is about extrapolating his performance to the rest of his game. I don't have any issue with people trying to sell 2017 as 'peak karlsson,' I DO have a problem with people trying to sell 'peak Karlsson' as 'common Karlsson.' No one is really doing that with Makar but they kind of can't given he's consistently trended up for his career this far. Maybe he takes a little step back with some inconsistencies next year--heck, I'd say that might even be likely given his nuclear level of play. But this idea that we're just supposed to accept that EK was always that guy is one that we're not going to agree on, ever, given his inconsistencies--whatever the reason--were what held him back (relatively). So get over it.

I'm not pretending EK's surgery didn't happen and it's very unfortunate that we (and he) were robbed of that. However, actual performance happened independently of these often-peddled fantasyland performances, and you can't continue to discount that he DID play on a better team and we have actual results from that.

But if you're so triggered by the appearance of my username that you can't even respond to this stuff without your inhaler, feel free to ignore me. No one will continue to be upset except you

What some people are doing with Makar is anointing him the 2nd best dman of all time after 3 seasons... and it appears you accept that because you save your challenges for anything Karlsson related, despite such preposterous claims. No one is upset, but your game is pretty obvious though.

This thread is about peak Karlsson. The version San Jose traded for is not the same player before the surgery so I don't see why you bother bringing it up. You won't find many Sens fans disagreeing that his play was not up to his normal standards when he returned from injury.

 

[pbgoalie]

Why is this thread still going? It’s just devolved into a pissing contest now.

What else would it do ?

 

[cgf]

What some people are doing with Makar is anointing him the 2nd best dman of all time after 3 seasons... and it appears you accept that because you save your challenges for anything Karlsson related, despite such preposterous claims. No one is upset, but your game is pretty obvious though.

This thread is about peak Karlsson. The version San Jose traded for is not the same player before the surgery so I don't see why you bother bringing it up. You won't find many Sens fans disagreeing that his play was not up to his normal standards when he returned from injury.

That's just because of nostalgia & people's refusal to accept when they are witnessing history. In a few years, folks will look back at this time and talk about how it was obvious from day 1 that Cale was the GOAT.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

One of Makar's most interesting accomplishments so far is already being #45 on the all-time list of playoff points by a defenseman.

If Colorado keeps rockin the playoffs for a few years, he'll be in the top 20 by age 25.

He has a real shot at #1. He'll probably be halfway there by age 25.

At age 23, he's already #8 on the active player list, soon to be #7 if Chara retires.

 

[Steerpike]

Wasn't he like 0-7 against their top line 5v5? The finals are not a good sample when it comes to proving Makar's greatness.

The PDO gods were extremely unkind to Makar, Nuke, Rantanen, Lehkonen.

It's miraculous to even be a + player when your on ice sv% is 88.17 and your sh% is only at 9.15.