Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[klozge]

Well, that went over your head. And you're kind of helping my case.

No, your argument was just really weak.

Edit: Maybe better said, the post he quoted didn't make the point you wanted it to make.

 

[umma gumma]

No, your argument was just really weak.

Boy you Avs fans are a sensitive bunch. I didn't even mention Makar in my post. You don't think it stands to reason that if Karlsson had three players on his team with 83 points or more instead of lagging 20-30 points back, that he'd have a few more even strength points? I think its pretty reasonable to think that if Stone, Hoffman, and Ryan combine for 60 more points, Karlsson would have a few more himself seeing as he was on the ice for half of the game.

 

[klozge]

Boy you Avs fans are a sensitive bunch. I didn't even mention Makar in my post. You don't think it stands to reason that if Karlsson had three players on his team with 83 points or more instead of lagging 20-30 points back, that he'd have a few more even strength points? I think its pretty reasonable to think that if Stone, Hoffman, and Ryan combine for 60 more points, Karlsson would have a few more himself seeing as he was on the ice for half of the game.

You missed the edit of my post by a few moments. I added: "Maybe better said, the post he quoted didn't make the point you wanted it to make."
I get what you wanted to say in the quoted post and what you are saying now, and I agree, although Makar usually has more points in games when the team misses one or more important scorers. Chances are, in the future nobody will remember the "what ifs" and alternative timelines anyway.

 

[umma gumma]

You missed the edit of my post by a few moments. I added: "Maybe better said, the post he quoted didn't make the point you wanted it to make."
I get what you wanted to say in the quoted post and what you are saying now, and I agree, although Makar usually has more points in games when the team misses one or more important scorers. Chances are, in the future nobody will remember the "what ifs" and alternative timelines anyway.

Makar is a beauty, no doubt about it. Most of the Karlsson fans in this thread have had nothing but praise for him.

 

[Mighty Makar]

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Karlsson had an incredible offensive peak but Makar is the better overall player, the Senators were one of the best defensive teams in the NHL for half a decade which masked a lot of Karlsson’s flaws.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Boy you Avs fans are a sensitive bunch. I didn't even mention Makar in my post. You don't think it stands to reason that if Karlsson had three players on his team with 83 points or more instead of lagging 20-30 points back, that he'd have a few more even strength points? I think its pretty reasonable to think that if Stone, Hoffman, and Ryan combine for 60 more points, Karlsson would have a few more himself seeing as he was on the ice for half of the game.

Yes, that was the argument before he went to the Sharks...and then what happened?

The fun thing is we don't even have to 'what if' that on a better team, it actually happened, but people keep going "wait not like that"

 

[Buck Naked]

Yes, that was the argument before he went to the Sharks...and then what happened?

The fun thing is we don't even have to 'what if' that on a better team, it actually happened, but people keep going "wait not like that"

To be fair though, Erik Karlsson had a terrific season the year he went to the Sharks. Five people had him on their Norris ballots despite him only playing 53 games. 45 points in those games and an extremely good offensive season according to underlying metrics. Better defensively than most of his other seasons as well. Pretty clear that injuries took their toll after that though.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

To be fair though, Erik Karlsson had a terrific season the year he went to the Sharks. Five people had him on their Norris ballots despite him only playing 53 games. 45 points in those games and an extremely good offensive season according to underlying metrics. Better defensively than most of his other seasons as well. Pretty clear that injuries took their toll after that though.

Absolutely, but the thought process at the time and plenty of threads verified it was that Karlsson was headed towards 90 points now playing with Burns even though plenty of posters had warned them they'd have to 'share' offense now. He played great, but the points pace didn't change much.

 

[Buck Naked]

Absolutely, but the thought process at the time and plenty of threads verified it was that Karlsson was headed towards 90 points now playing with Burns even though plenty of posters had warned them they'd have to 'share' offense now. He played great, but the points pace didn't change much.

I mean, you can only assume it takes some time for any player to adapt to a new system. He had 10 points in his 20 first games. One might think that could be as a result of adapting to a new team and everything that comes with it. From there, leading up to his injury, he had 35 points in 32 games. Sure, that's a bit of nitpicking, but still. He was on a tear before that injury.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

Weber > Karlsson

 

[didimentionlarseller]

if he plays amazingly the rest of his career he might pass Shea in goals....he might but its doubtful

he will never have Webers consistency

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

Think so, yes.
He already has a Norris and Smythe and could well win another Norris or two before his career is over.
Read that he was producing in the playoffs at a pace near-unheard of for defencemen as well this year.

I don't really accept the "Makar is on a stacked team" argument because each GM can tailor their team as needed/wanted. Bryan Murray surrounded Erik Karlsson with refuse and gave contracts to mediocre local players and mediocre energy guys. Another GM may well have added more elite pieces to send Erik into a Cup finals.

As well, the Sharks weren't exactly an AHL caliber squad when he joined them, but he didn't lift them to a finals or win a Conn Smythe with them. Now, Karlsson's career isn't over by any stretch of the imagination, but he needs a Conn Smythe/Cup asap to keep up with Cale Makar. Without wanting umbrage on the Sharks, he may have to move to get that done.

 

[Evilsports]

I have no horse in this race aside from my Oilers losing to the Avs this year. I am sincerely of the premature and unsubstantiated opinion that when the dust settles, a healthy Makar will go down as one of the best defensemen in league history.

 

[Flair Hay]

Now that he has a Conn Smythe to his name? Yeah I'd say he is now.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Karlsson had an incredible offensive peak but Makar is the better overall player, the Senators were one of the best defensive teams in the NHL for half a decade which masked a lot of Karlsson’s flaws.

I’m trying to find what half of which definition of a decade that applies to Karlsson’s tenure with the Sens, where someone might suggest they were among the best defensive teams.

2012-13 through 2016-17 is their best five year span, they were 15th in the 30 team league. That’s average. Actually, there were exactly three seasons during Karlsson’s entire tenure with the Sens where their GAA was above league average: 2012-13 (2.08, 2nd), 2013-14 (2.54, 13th) and 2016-17 (2.56, 10th).

 

[thedustman]

I dunno, i’m sure it’s been mentioned… but i’d say karlsson’s been better than makar against the blues in the playoffs…

 

[NyQuil]

Karlsson had an incredible offensive peak but Makar is the better overall player, the Senators were one of the best defensive teams in the NHL for half a decade which masked a lot of Karlsson’s flaws.

Er what?

 

[Mr Zappalanche]

First it was Makar vs Hughes
Then it was Makar vs Fox
Now it's Makar vs Karlsson

Sens fans, there's no amount of crying you can do to prevent the inevitable. Just let it happen. Makar is your new daddy.

You forgot Makar vs Heiskanen.

 

[BradyTkachucky]

This thread is still open? Jesus man, it's Makar, end of story. EK was great, and if it wasn't for injuries they would be equals in my humble opinion.

 

[Gatorbait19]

Serious question because I don’t remember - did people in EK’s prime consider him to be the best or top 2-3 player in the world (or could you have at least credibly made that argument)? Was he up there in the convo with Crosby, Ovi, Kane and McDavid during those years?

I’m definitely biased as an Avs guy and believe that Makar’s hardware now firmly separates him from EK. But objectively, I think the fact Makar is now considered to be a top 2-3 player in the world speaks volumes, particularly if EK was never thought of in that way.

 

[SevenOfSpades]

Serious question because I don’t remember - did people in EK’s prime consider him to be the best or top 2-3 player in the world (or could you have at least credibly made that argument)? Was he up there in the convo with Crosby, Ovi, Kane and McDavid during those years?

I’m definitely biased as an Avs guy and believe that Makar’s hardware now firmly separates him from EK. But objectively, I think the fact Makar is now considered to be a top 2-3 player in the world speaks volumes, particularly if EK was never thought of in that way.

This was a common argument made just after Karlsson's 2017 run to the conference finals (not just by Sens fans, but mostly by Atlantic division fans). Here is a link to an HFBoards thread around that time discussing whether Erik Karlsson is a generational player.

I think Makar's season this year equals and surpasses Karlsson's best season as an Ottawa Senator. That being said, from 2011-2017, Karlsson was lauded for his consistency: he won two Norris trophies, arguably deserved 3 or 4 in that time span. His average seasons in that time frame were still considered dominant. Most analysts argue that he is the best defenceman of the 2010s.

It is a shame for EKs injuries, as they seem to have tarnished his legacy. Frankly, I think Karlsson was at his prime in the first half of the 2012-2013 season (before the incident).

If Makar plays around this level for at least 3 more seasons, which I assume he will as he is still entering his prime, he will have surpassed Karlsson and will be the best defenceman of his generation. I'm just hesitant to say it at this time because 1) I'm extremely biased, 2) with injuries you never know how a career may play out.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

Serious question because I don’t remember - did people in EK’s prime consider him to be the best or top 2-3 player in the world (or could you have at least credibly made that argument)? Was he up there in the convo with Crosby, Ovi, Kane and McDavid during those years?

No he never was. His peak performance was much too short to ever be considered a great. He was an amazing defender but no long term consistency

It’s more accurate to say Karlsson was the best player Ottawa ever had.

Ottawa fans are kind of using the rise of Makar to reintroduce their Karlsson fables

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

Karlsson without the tendon slash was one of the most dominant players in the last 10-15 years.

 

[Gatorbait19]

This was a common argument made just after Karlsson's 2017 run to the conference finals (not just by Sens fans, but mostly by Atlantic division fans). Here is a link to an HFBoards thread around that time discussing whether Erik Karlsson is a generational player.

I think Makar's season this year equals and surpasses Karlsson's best season as an Ottawa Senator. That being said, from 2011-2017, Karlsson was lauded for his consistency: he won two Norris trophies, arguably deserved 3 or 4 in that time span. His average seasons in that time frame were still considered dominant. Most analysts argue that he is the best defenceman of the 2010s.

It is a shame for EKs injuries, as they seem to have tarnished his legacy. Frankly, I think Karlsson was at his prime in the first half of the 2012-2013 season (before the incident).

If Makar plays around this level for at least 3 more seasons, which I assume he will as he is still entering his prime, he will have surpassed Karlsson and will be the best defenceman of his generation. I'm just hesitant to say it at this time because 1) I'm extremely biased, 2) with injuries you never know how a career may play out.

Good analysis and thanks for the rundown. In line with my post/comment/question, my view is that while Karlsson was probably the best defenseman of the 2010s and arguably a generational dman, very few ppl outside Ottawa probably considered him to be the best player or a top 2-3 player in the world.

Meanwhile, many non-Avs fans/ppl do consider Cale to be at least a top 2-3 guy in the world, with a (very) small contingent saying it’s possible or arguable he’s the best player in the world (I disagree there and think Mcdave is obviously still no. 1). One other aspect that stuck out to me from the 2017 thread is the fact that when EK was compared to the other top dmen of all time, he was compared to Potvin, Lidstrom, Coffey etc. but never Orr.

However, the general consensus when Cale is compared to the top dmen, ppl skip right by Potvin/Lidstrom/Coffey and go straight to Orr. I think the fact that Gretzky of all ppl even said that Cale is the best dman he’s seen since Orr truly speaks volumes.