Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[NyQuil]

You seem to be downplaying Makar scooping up a Conn Smythe with that Cup as if it shouldn’t have much weight in the argument, so I apologize if I put words in your mouth.

Ray Bourque never did it. Is that because he wasn't good enough to do so?

 

[abo9]

You seem to be downplaying Makar scooping up a Conn Smythe with that Cup as if it shouldn’t have much weight in the argument, so I apologize if I put words in your mouth.

I was not trying to downplay it, but I think it's tough to use awards that are so team-dependent to compare players.

Makar fully deserved his CS on a stacked team, it's impressive as hell that he beat out the likes of Mackinnon and Rantanen (playoff beasts) for it.

But Norris wise, Makar still has to win that 2nd one, and then a 3rd one. It's no easy feat.

Though, I dont doubt he'll be a top 5 nominee for a while

 

[NyQuil]

But Norris wise, Makar still has to win that 2nd one, and then a 3rd one. It's no easy feat.

There's a tendency to think it is inconceivable that a player won't simply continue racking up awards.

People expected Cups and awards from Crosby after he snagged some early, they expected the same from Karlsson.

I don't think anyone argues that Makar has the potential to do so. That's all you can really say right now.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

No. This is dumb. Makar is wonderful, but no

 

[Video Nasty]

Ray Bourque never did it. Is that because he wasn't good enough to do so?

Take note abo9, this is putting words in someone’s mouth.

 

[NyQuil]

Take note abo9, this is putting words in someone’s mouth.

Where did I say that you said that?

Now you're putting words in -my- mouth.

 

[abo9]

There's a tendency to think it is inconceivable that a player won't simply continue racking up awards.

People expected Cups and awards from Crosby after he snagged some early, they expected the same from Karlsson.

I don't think anyone argues that Makar has the potential to do so. That's all you can really say right now.

Usually injuries are an annoying culprit. Hopefully Makar doesn't get injured and we can see him compete at a high level throught his career

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

He has surpassed Karlsson. Now on to debating him vs Lidstrom.

Short answer: no.
Long answer: hahahahahhaha no

 

[AvsFan29]

I mean, "duh". IF Makar wins 2 of rhe next 3 Norris it's gonna be a true "AINEC" moment.

But that's a pretty big "if" - it's an extremely unlikely scenario. I'll eat dirt if that happens lol.

I wouldn't say it's "extremely unlikely" at all. Josi and Hedman are getting older. Fox has potential, but I wouldn't say he has a better chance than Makar. Who does that leave?

 

[Coffey]

I wouldn't say it's "extremely unlikely" at all. Josi and Hedman are getting older. Fox has potential, but I wouldn't say he has a better chance than Makar. Who does that leave?

Nurse, duh

 

[Buck Naked]

I wouldn't say it's "extremely unlikely" at all. Josi and Hedman are getting older. Fox has potential, but I wouldn't say he has a better chance than Makar. Who does that leave?

Count on Ekblad and McAvoy to be "due" picks soon, if they can stay healthy. Especially McAvoy.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

I wouldn't say it's "extremely unlikely" at all. Josi and Hedman are getting older. Fox has potential, but I wouldn't say he has a better chance than Makar. Who does that leave?

There's a whole crop of exciting potential star defenseman that are just entering the league. Seider, Power, Sanderson, Drysdale, Clarke. Then there are other star dmen who have the potential to have a great season like Fox, Josi, Hedman, McAvoy. Maybe Dahlin breaks out too, he was certainly drafted with the potential to win Norris trophies in mind.

 

[abo9]

I wouldn't say it's "extremely unlikely" at all. Josi and Hedman are getting older. Fox has potential, but I wouldn't say he has a better chance than Makar. Who does that leave?

There are quite a few defensemen who could have a career year or something. You name Fox like he's some rookie that never did anything, yet he won the Norris 2 years ago...

Keep in mind, players don't need to have a better career than Makar, just have a better year. Here's a few name who I believe could have a better seasons if the stars align - it only takes one:

Josi just had a career year
McAvoy has been top 5 2 years in a row.
Dougie Hamilton has had some high finishes
Fox won one already and is still young.
Aaron Ekblad is still "young" and on a very strong team
Miro Heiskanen could explode
Quinn Hughes
Jaccob Slavin
Jakob Chychrun if he's traded
Moritz Seider -
Another name that will pop out of nowhere?


In short, there are a lot of talented D's in the league. Lots of young ones and lots of older ones still performing well too. And I'm probably forgetting a few good names.

I maintain that 2/3 of the next Norris is gonna be hugely surprising. I'm surprised it's even a challenged opinion, given the very few names that have done it over the entire history of the NHL.

 

[Siludin]

Nurse, duh

It's Quinn Hughes' turn next.

 

[not a troll]

It's Quinn Hughes' turn next.

I can't wait for round 2 of Cale vs Quinn.

 

[McVespa99]

I dont know if he has surpassed him but I do know I wouldn't trade today's Makar for prime EK.

 

[5 14 6 1]

I think he's better. I've been on the Makar train since watching him in Brooks, the kid is unbelievable and will go down as one of the greatest to ever play..

 

[ottawa]

I mean, "duh". IF Makar wins 2 of rhe next 3 Norris it's gonna be a true "AINEC" moment.

But that's a pretty big "if" - it's an extremely unlikely scenario. I'll eat dirt if that happens lol.

Idk what you talk about being "penalized". You're putting words in my mouth.

Makar doesn't need to win 2 of the next 3 Norris trophies to be in the "AINEC" zone.

I had said he already surpassed EK (not clearly but decisively enough) and I said that before he won the Conn Smythe and Cup. I'd say now he's clearly ahead of EK now and the gap will only get bigger and bigger provided Makar doesn't fall off a cliff.

 

[Tetragrammaton]

Of course he passed prime Karlsson.

 

[abo9]

Makar doesn't need to win 2 of the next 3 Norris trophies to be in the "AINEC" zone.

I had said he already surpassed EK (not clearly but decisively enough) and I said that before he won the Conn Smythe and Cup. I'd say now he's clearly ahead of EK now and the gap will only get bigger and bigger provided Makar doesn't fall off a cliff.

I just don't know how it can be objectively shown that Makar's career to date is decisively better than Karlsson at the same age - let alone "prime" Karlsson.

I've read through this thread in the past couple weeks, and offensively it's pretty clear that Karlsson was ahead.

Defensively is where it gets murky. The stats are flawed and immature. Both sides presented numbers that painted each player in a positive light defensively.

Makar > Karlsson is defendable. But "AINEC"? Whats the supporting argument besides anecdotes?

 

[ottawa]

I just don't know how it can be objectively shown that Makar's career to date is decisively better than Karlsson at the same age - let alone "prime" Karlsson.

I've read through this thread in the past couple weeks, and offensively it's pretty clear that Karlsson was ahead.

Defensively is where it gets murky. The stats are flawed and immature. Both sides presented numbers that painted each player in a positive light defensively.

Makar > Karlsson is defendable. But "AINEC"? Whats the supporting argument besides anecdotes?

Not many people are saying AINEC...people are just saying he's clearly ahead (it might not be by much for all we know).

Offensively, Makar's 3 years are imo equal to EK's prime years 2013-14 to 2017-18...he likely has a higher PPG but scoring is up vs when EK was playing.

Defensively I'd give an edge to Makar, EK wasn't as bad as people made him out to be but neither are great...their main asset is driving the play through their skating and offence, it's not really their work in their own zone.

So pretty much mostly all equal so far still...it comes down to hardware. They each won a Norris in their 3rd year with EK picking up a 2nd one in his prime years. I think Makar is without a doubt headed in the direction of getting at least one more because I'm a big believer in him...

But even if he doesn't, his play in the cup run that earned him a Conn Smythe bumps the hardware advantage in his direction imo. Could EK have won a Conn Smythe, if he won a cup in either of the 2 years he went far then yes....but that didn't happen.

 

[wetcoast]

I dont know if he has surpassed him but I do know I wouldn't trade today's Makar for prime EK.

This sort of answers the question right?

 

[TheSenator]

EK65 pre-achilles injury was an absolute savant. Im a Sens fan so I know first hand how much he controlled and impacted the game. The team looked like a farm team whenever he stepped off the ice. For a few years he was in a tier of his own offensively, played the most mins and had the most team responsibility out of any other dman/arguably any other player in the game.

That being said Makar this season and particularly on this playoff run just reached another level. Norris trophy, Conn Smythe trophy and Stanley Cup Champion w his offensive output(86pts in 77gp, 29pts in 20gp) + being the leading scorer on his team in postseason scoring is unreal. I feel like people are downplaying how incredible that is.

 

[PAZ]

There are quite a few defensemen who could have a career year or something. You name Fox like he's some rookie that never did anything, yet he won the Norris 2 years ago...

Keep in mind, players don't need to have a better career than Makar, just have a better year. Here's a few name who I believe could have a better seasons if the stars align - it only takes one:

Josi just had a career year
McAvoy has been top 5 2 years in a row.
Dougie Hamilton has had some high finishes
Fox won one already and is still young.
Aaron Ekblad is still "young" and on a very strong team
Miro Heiskanen could explode
Quinn Hughes
Jaccob Slavin
Jakob Chychrun if he's traded
Moritz Seider -
Another name that will pop out of nowhere?


In short, there are a lot of talented D's in the league. Lots of young ones and lots of older ones still performing well too. And I'm probably forgetting a few good names.

I maintain that 2/3 of the next Norris is gonna be hugely surprising. I'm surprised it's even a challenged opinion, given the very few names that have done it over the entire history of the NHL.

I agree 2/3 is unlikely, but I honestly think the only names that will win the Norris in the next 3 years are either Hedman, Josi, Makar, Fox, or McAvoy. (Seider + Dahlin has an outside chance as well).

There are a lot of talented young defenseman right now but not many Norris level defenseman. Compare this to a decade ago you had Weber, Suter, Keith, Subban, Karlsson, Chara, Letang, Pietrangelo, Doughty, Giordano, Burns, etc. who were all Norris caliber defensemen.

I do think plenty of names like Hughes, Heiskanen, etc. can start to build a reputation of being Norris caliber, but they aren't there yet.

 

[TheBeard]

I agree 2/3 is unlikely, but I honestly think the only names that will win the Norris in the next 3 years are either Hedman, Josi, Makar, Fox, or McAvoy. (Seider + Dahlin has an outside chance as well).

There are a lot of talented young defenseman right now but not many Norris level defenseman. Compare this to a decade ago you had Weber, Suter, Keith, Subban, Karlsson, Chara, Letang, Pietrangelo, Doughty, Giordano, Burns, etc. who were all Norris caliber defensemen.

I do think plenty of names like Hughes, Heiskanen, etc. can start to build a reputation of being Norris caliber, but they aren't there yet.

Giordano’s win kind of came out of nowhere. I can see a variety of guys having comeback seasons like Seth Jones or Nurse or Werenski and I can see younger guys taking the jump as Fox and Makar did.