Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[MacMacandBarbie]

The reality is that when it’s all said and done, nobody gives a shit. People don’t care where LeBron won his rings. He won them. Nobody cares about the defensive talent Tom Brady had on his super bowl winning teams.

I don’t follow football as much so I can’t speak to that one, but people care very much about where LeBron won his rings

 

[CTHabsfan]

100 miles ahead of him.

In Canada, Makar is 161 kilometres ahead of him.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I don’t follow football as much so I can’t speak to that one, but people care very much about where LeBron won his rings

Only his most devoted haters.

Nobody cares that Wayne Gretzky had Coffey/Messier/Kurri. Nobody cares that Sakic had Forsberg, Roy Blake. Nobody cares that Lidstrom had Yzerman, Federov, Shanahan.

The results are the only thing that matters.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I bet the colorado fans overhyping Makar are the same ones who think Jokic is a top 5 player in the NBA.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

He most certainly was not

Between this and the 'best pass in history' comments the reason these takes get clowned so hard is because they're either so hyperbolic it's impossible to respond or you have such little respect for your fellow posters that you think they have the memory of an onion.

For the brief games he played before the Cooke injury he absolutely was in the conversation. I can remember a coach from an opposing team saying how he's arguably the best in the league, and the TSN panel talking after one of his games that he will be in the Hart conversation if he keeps up his play.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

For the brief games he played before the Cooke injury he absolutely was in the conversation. I can remember a coach from an opposing team saying how he's arguably the best in the league, and the TSN panel talking after one of his games that he will be in the Hart conversation if he keeps up his play.

If you're going to build such arguments off a 17 game sample size you're going to have to accept a LOT more takes about top defensemen than you've been willing to.

More than a little hypocritical to be relying on what coaches and media say over a 17 game sample size then railing against 'expert' opinions about other top dmen.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

If you're going to build such arguments off a 17 game sample size you're going to have to accept a LOT more takes about top defensemen than you've been willing to.

More than a little hypocritical to be relying on what coaches and media say over a 17 game sample size then railing against 'expert' opinions about other top dmen.

What are you even talking about? They said that Makar had a better start to his career than any defenseman since Orr, and I reminded them that Karlsson had a similar great start to his career where he won a Norris at 21 (and finished top 10 in league scoring), was certainly going to win another the following season and was getting attention across the league as one of the best players in the game, just like Makar is.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Only his most devoted haters.

Nobody cares that Wayne Gretzky had Coffey/Messier/Kurri. Nobody cares that Sakic had Forsberg, Roy Blake. Nobody cares that Lidstrom had Yzerman, Federov, Shanahan.

The results are the only thing that matters.

Countless respected media members have critiqued LeBron for the manner in which he formed the Lakers, Ray Allen has one of the most famous shots in history due to the context of saving LeBron’s first ring, etc. I don’t want to hijack this thread so I’ll just say I agree with your overall premise. The W on the stat sheets aren’t the only thing that matters, people do look at context within those results at the end of the day too.

 

[SnizzNasty88]

Quite easily AINEC

 

[TheBeard]

He most certainly was not

Between this and the 'best pass in history' comments the reason these takes get clowned so hard is because they're either so hyperbolic it's impossible to respond or you have such little respect for your fellow posters that you think they have the memory of an onion.

The takes for Karlsson back then are almost identical to the current takes for Makar and will inevitably be the takes in a few years when the next great one comes out.

 

[umma gumma]

He most certainly was not

Between this and the 'best pass in history' comments the reason these takes get clowned so hard is because they're either so hyperbolic it's impossible to respond or you have such little respect for your fellow posters that you think they have the memory of an onion.

Why isn't the hyperbolic in regards to Markar an issue for you? Your post insinuates its one sided, and it most certainly is not.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Why isn't the hyperbolic in regards to Markar an issue for you? Your post insinuates its one sided, and it most certainly is not.

I have yet to see anyone say Makar literally made the best play in history or is guaranteed to win the next Norris

The EK boosters in this thread keep passing these things off as if they should be commonly accepted takes and just call people haters when they question them

The makar hyperbole can be a bit much but it's not coming at the expense of his competition and is grounded in reality rather than maybes. Saying Karlsson was being called the best player in the world and on his way to another norris when he played less than 20 games, but not affording any other dman in the league that kind of benefit, is just goggles.

Ek is the only player on this board who can play 50 bad/average games due to inconsistency or injury but when he's dominant in 20 it's because he's the guy who is dominant in 20 games and not the average of the two. It's insane what kind of alibis the guy has gotten his whole career, and that when any other dman including makar has a awesome year they have to be compared to EK's best and smallest sample sizes rather than who he is as a whole.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

The whole idea that you have to play for a bad team to get any individual recognition is pure trash. If you’re using cup wins to detract from a players value, you’re missing the whole point of the game.

Yeah but Makar plays for the Avs. Imagine if Karlsson played for the Avs.

 

[umma gumma]

I have yet to see anyone say Makar literally made the best play in history or is guaranteed to win the next Norris

The EK boosters in this thread keep passing these things off as if they should be commonly accepted takes and just call people haters when they question them

The makar hyperbole can be a bit much but it's not coming at the expense of his competition and is grounded in reality rather than maybes.

Apparently he's already better than Lidstrom and Bourque. That is not grounded at all, so I guess you see what you want to. At least we figured that out.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Apparently he's already better than Lidstrom and Bourque. That is not grounded at all, so I guess you see what you want to. At least we figured that out.

Yeah we know, the same three Sens fans keep telling the entire forum that. It's probably everyone else, not just you three. Sleep well knowing that.

 

[umma gumma]

Yeah we know, the same three Sens fans keep telling the entire forum that. It's probably everyone else, not just you three. Sleep well knowing that.

So three Sens fans are the only ones that think its a little much to claim Makar is already better than Lidstsom and Bourque? And you agree with that line of thinking?

Again, you see what you want to see.

 

[cgf]

I bet the colorado fans overhyping Makar are the same ones who think Jokic is a top 5 player in the NBA.

As an avs fan & a knicks fan, I have no strong feelings towards the Nuggets...but it's silly to pretend like there's anything wrong with a fanbase considering their 2021 NBA MVP a top 5 player. I'm not sure he'd make my list (Giannis, KD, Steph, Kawhi, are my top 5 locks), but it's not outrageous.

Just like it would be silly for anyone to act like it is unreasonable for people to argue Cale is a top 6 skater in the NHL, right now.

 

[cgf]

Countless respected media members have critiqued LeBron for the manner in which he formed the Lakers, Ray Allen has one of the most famous shots in history due to the context of saving LeBron’s first ring, etc. I don’t want to hijack this thread so I’ll just say I agree with your overall premise. The W on the stat sheets aren’t the only thing that matters, people do look at context within those results at the end of the day too.

Hockey & Basketball are radically different sports though. NBA stars have a much larger impact on winning and losing than do NHL stars. Not just because of the time differential...if an NHL star is playing over 40% of a playoff game that is noteworthy, whereas NBA stars are regularly on the court for ~80% of playoff games

...but also because of the basic structure of the sport; hockey games have much fewer scoring events and depth players play a much larger role in them, while basketball has so many more scoring events and stars are involved in a much higher percentage of them.

 

[Darren McCord]

Makar also hits and lands some big ones.

EK has never been much of a hitter

 

[BradyTkachucky]

I'm as big a fan of EK as you'll find. Makar is at a level now that I hoped EK would have reached pre Cook. It's Makar here, and as long as he stays healthy he has a chance to challenge McDavid as the best player in the league.

 

[pelderhostiga]

Karlsson was the best player in 2017 playoffs but Malkin won Conn Smythe.

McDavid was the bedt player in 2022 playoffs but Makar won Conn Smythe.

I'm hesitant to call Makar better than Karlsson was at his very best, but I'm sure he'll get there in a bit unless he gets heavily injured.

 

[TheBeard]

Yeah we know, the same three Sens fans keep telling the entire forum that. It's probably everyone else, not just you three. Sleep well knowing that.

Trashing fan bases isn’t a way to win a debate

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Trashing fan bases isn’t a way to win a debate

If you want to play white knight you might want to go 12 hours without hypocrisy

And frankly it was simply an observation that no one is 'winning' a debate against a handful of people who have been dug in on their position for a half decade despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary and no matter who is presenting it. And that's fine, just wear it, don't pretend it's not the case. As much as I butt heads with @Erik Alfredsson I definitely appreciate that he's not wishy washy about his thoughts, others are...see photo.

 

[TheBeard]

If you want to play white knight you might want to go 12 hours without hypocrisy

View attachment 564308

I’m not debating anyone in that thread.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I’m not debating anyone in that thread.

Oh, okay. Then it's cool if you're the grand arbiter.