Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Voight]

Yeah, Karlsson doesn’t really touch Makar. It will be easier on you the sooner you accept it, and understand that it doesn’t take away from Karlsson’s HHOF-worthy career.

The insistence by a tiny handful of Sens fans that Karlsson was good defensively during his peak, and the constant claims that the huge majority saying otherwise never watched him play, is truly something to behold.

Apparently good means blackhole these days

 

[GirardSpinorama]

I wouldn't call either things a minor accomplishment. If it were minor, then more than 2 or 3 defensemen in NHL history would've done it.

A lot of statistical accomplishments are rare but also minor. Winning a Conn Smythe and Norris is consequential and rare. Leading regular season in assist for a dman is not (in comparison to a Conn Smyth).

 

[Dach Vader]

He's McDavid level good.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

A lot of statistical accomplishments are rare but also minor. Winning a Conn Smythe and Norris is consequential and rare. Leading regular season in assist for a dman is not (in comparison to a Conn Smyth).

It's a rather petty thing to get hung up on, clearly both are very impressive achievements that few have reached in the history of the game.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

It's a rather petty thing to get hung up on, clearly both are very impressive achievements that few have reached in the history of the game.

You wouldn't be saying that if it was the other way around. It is not equally impressive.

You're also the one who needed to use era adjusted scoring for Karlsson (active player) for a season only a few years ago, that's petty.

 

[Muffin]

It's a rather petty thing to get hung up on, clearly both are very impressive achievements that few have reached in the history of the game.

Record for assists is pretty dumb, he only scored 16 goals that year. You’re telling me if he scored more goals but had less assists it’d be a worse year for him? Goals >>>Assists.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

You wouldn't be saying that if it was the other way around. It is not equally impressive.

You're also the one who needed to use era adjusted scoring for Karlsson (active player) for a season only a few years ago, that's petty.

Record for assists is pretty dumb, he only scored 16 goals that year. You’re telling me if he scored more goals but had less assists it’d be a worse year for him? Goals >>>Assists.

I guess this is the point we've reached in this discussion. Insecure fans who need to diminish every past defenseman to prop their guy up. Very sad. I'll leave with this. You have nothing to be insecure about, Makar is a fantastic young defenseman with the potential to be among the greats. Just enjoy him while you can. No need to tear down past legends to make him seem more impressive. If he is truly as great as you claim, then it will be revealed in due time.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Okay and if I went and said Karlsson is comparable to Orr because they're the only 2 defenseman in NHL history to lead the league in assists then you'd probably take issue with that.


Karlsson won a Norris at 21, the same age Makar was when he first entered the league, and was being called arguably the best player in the league the next season at the age of 22. So that's also misleading.

Why would I have problem with such a great achievement? That's amazing.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

If Makar wins another Norris next season then this won't even be close.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Lest we forget his own playoff run where he made the best pass of all time and one of the best plays in recent playoff history. He was also part of 90% of Sens points in final 2 playoff rounds or something insane of that sort. Don’t give me this bs of thinking Makar is better let alone clearly better, lmao.

Dear God I can’t imagine EK playing with another top 5 player in the world in both C and W, lmao.

Watch from 4:35. He wasn’t just making end-to-end rushes and spinoramas in his own zone like Makar in his video. He was literally dictating everything on the ice and scored and made more incredible individual efforts than Makar ever did this playoff run. Don’t ever give me that confident ass Makar is better bs.

That’s cool and all, but Makar’s playoff run was clearly better. It was one of the all-time great playoffs by a defenceman.

Look at the numbers between these two players in the postseason. It’s not even close.

 

[lionsDen]

I guess this is the point we've reached in this discussion. Insecure fans who need to diminish every past defenseman to prop their guy up. Very sad. I'll leave with this. You have nothing to be insecure about, Makar is a fantastic young defenseman with the potential to be among the greats. Just enjoy him while you can. No need to tear down past legends to make him seem more impressive. If he is truly as great as you claim, then it will be revealed in due time.

Dude are you crying? There’ no crying in sports fan land.

It wasn’t even a a avs fan who started the thread there sport

 

[Strait2thecup]

It’s hard for me to say rigjt now. Makar is going to pass karlsson I think as he’ll probably be one of the best to ever do it. BUT I’ve also never seen a defenseman carry a team like karlsson 2017. Based on reading the thread peak karlsson is very underrated

 

[habdynasty]

100 miles ahead of him.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Makar isn't a finished product yet. He will learn new things.

That’s all fair and well. I have went on record to say Makar could be better. But it’s these horrendous recency bias posts of people claiming he is better already.

That’s cool and all, but Makar’s playoff run was clearly better. It was one of the all-time great playoffs by a defenceman.

Look at the numbers between these two players in the postseason. It’s not even close.

Yea, cause one person played with Mackinnon, Rantanen, Toews, Kadri etc. Karlsson’s best players were Stone(injured) Ryan, Turris, MacArthur(hadn’t played for 2 years before) and Methot.

Mackinnon had a top 5 C in the game on his team and a top 5 W in the game with a partner who Avs fans are claiming is a number 1 D himself.

Karlsson didn’t play with a single line mate that was a consensus legit top line guy at the time(perhaps Stone) and Methot was at best a number 3 away from EK.

Relative to their teammates, Karlsson was better, easily, no question.

Karlsson had 3 point lead over next best player on his team and 7 point lead on 2nd. Makar had 4 points and 5 points. Karlsson had significant lead over next best +/- while Makar was forth on his team. You have no idea what context means right?

 

[ChickenDinner]

Makar has more winner winner hardware this season alone than some recent HOFers...

and you guys are wondering if his first 4 years are better than karlsson's. LOL

 

[CloutierForVezina]

Mackinnon had a top 5 C in the game on his team and a top 5 W in the game with a partner who Avs fans are claiming is a number 1 D himself.

Karlsson didn’t play with a single line mate that was a consensus legit top line guy at the time(perhaps Stone) and Methot was at best a number 3 away from EK.

Relative to their teammates, Karlsson was better, easily, no question.

Karlsson had 3 point lead over next best player on his team and 7 point lead on 2nd. Makar had 4 points and 5 points. Karlsson had significant lead over next best +/- while Makar was forth on his team. You have no idea what context means right?

Using your own logic here - isn't Karlsson leading his team in points not that impressive because his teammates were all so incredibly bad? Whereas for Makar to lead his team in points, he has to outperform a top-5 C AND and a top-5 W in the game. And apparently he's fighting another #1D for points.

Karlsson having a 3 point lead on Bobby Ryan certainly sounds less impressive than Makar having a 4+ point lead on Rantanen, MacKinnon, and Landeskog.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

It’s hard for me to say rigjt now. Makar is going to pass karlsson I think as he’ll probably be one of the best to ever do it. BUT I’ve also never seen a defenseman carry a team like karlsson 2017. Based on reading the thread peak karlsson is very underrated

he was very good in that run but carrying a team for a singular playoff run does not make anyone the best player or defender in the league

no-one wants to talk about his current level of play either (for years now?) dragging down his peak years - in a greatest player or defender I want consistency and excellence over a much longer period of time than Karlsson was able to manage

I have no issue with him being an elite defender etc its when you start calling him the best player in the league and the best defender I think its just not correct

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Using your own logic here - isn't Karlsson leading his team in points not that impressive because his teammates were all so incredibly bad? Whereas for Makar to lead his team in points, he has to outperform a top-5 C AND and a top-5 W in the game. And apparently he's fighting another #1D for points.

Karlsson having a 3 point lead on Bobby Ryan certainly sounds less impressive than Makar having a 4+ point lead on Rantanen, MacKinnon, and Landeskog.

You’re right, except the Senators did that being 1 goal away from the cup finals.

If Karlsson achieved what you said and his team was constantly bottom 3, it would make sense and his impact would be notable but not significant because it did not translate to success.

Karlsson took a bunch of average/below average guys and carried the shit out of them to 1 goal away from the finals while being part of like 90% of points scored in final 2 rounds and focal point in every major play.

Just look at the video clips of Karlsson’s Norris victories. Conacher, Greening, Neil, Zack Smith what an absolute joke of teammates. His best teammates were Turris, Ryan, McArthur and an injured ridiculously uderperformed Stone, LOL.

Karlsson finished tied for 4th in points one year, Makar hasn’t even sniffed top 20 yet. Come on now, ladies and gentlemen. Let’s be real who greatness is. Makar can definitely pass EK, but let’s not act like what EK did was not nothing short of generational. Too bad his prime was 1) not on elite team 2) cut short.

 

[tucker3434]

The whole idea that you have to play for a bad team to get any individual recognition is pure trash. If you’re using cup wins to detract from a players value, you’re missing the whole point of the game.

 

[CloutierForVezina]

You’re right, except the Senators did that being 1 goal away from the cup finals.

If Karlsson achieved what you said and his team was constantly bottom 3, it would make sense and his impact would be notable but not significant because it did not translate to success.

Karlsson took a bunch of average guys and carried the shit out of them to 1 goal away from the finals while being part of like 90% of points scored in final 2 rounds and focal point in every major play.

Sure, but isn't that just setting up a world were the most impressive thing anyone can do is play on a bad team and go kinda far? It undercuts the achievement of anyone who isn't playing on a dreadful team. It puts almost achieving something with a bad team as more impressive than actually achieving something with a good team.

I totally get using quality of team as a tiebreaker when two players achieve in the same thing. I don't get using quality of team as a trump card to elevate a lesser achievement like a conference finals loss above a greater achievement like a cup win.

 

[TheBeard]

The whole idea that you have to play for a bad team to get any individual recognition is pure trash. If you’re using cup wins to detract from a players value, you’re missing the whole point of the game.

If you think that then you have to also discount the significant of winning a Smythe.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

That’s all fair and well. I have went on record to say Makar could be better. But it’s these horrendous recency bias posts of people claiming he is better already.



Yea, cause one person played with Mackinnon, Rantanen, Toews, Kadri etc. Karlsson’s best players were Stone(injured) Ryan, Turris, MacArthur(hadn’t played for 2 years before) and Methot.

Mackinnon had a top 5 C in the game on his team and a top 5 W in the game with a partner who Avs fans are claiming is a number 1 D himself.

Karlsson didn’t play with a single line mate that was a consensus legit top line guy at the time(perhaps Stone) and Methot was at best a number 3 away from EK.

Relative to their teammates, Karlsson was better, easily, no question.

Karlsson had 3 point lead over next best player on his team and 7 point lead on 2nd. Makar had 4 points and 5 points. Karlsson had significant lead over next best +/- while Makar was forth on his team. You have no idea what context means right?

It seems like this is a hockey thing where people dream about players in different situations and think everything would be different.

The reality is that when it’s all said and done, nobody gives a shit. People don’t care where LeBron won his rings. He won them. Nobody cares about the defensive talent Tom Brady had on his super bowl winning teams.

You play where you play and there’s advantages for Karlsson in not having to point share as much. So there’s positives and negatives to every situation.

 

[Avs2022]

Makar is just like Karlsson - no defense.....

Worst take on this thread. Makars defense is much better. Plus he's only 23.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Karlsson won a Norris at 21, the same age Makar was when he first entered the league, and was being called arguably the best player in the league the next season at the age of 22. So that's also misleading.

He most certainly was not

Between this and the 'best pass in history' comments the reason these takes get clowned so hard is because they're either so hyperbolic it's impossible to respond or you have such little respect for your fellow posters that you think they have the memory of an onion.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

You wouldn't be saying that if it was the other way around. It is not equally impressive.

You're also the one who needed to use era adjusted scoring for Karlsson (active player) for a season only a few years ago, that's petty.

Are you unaware of the drastic increase in scoring since Makar entered the league, or are you purposefully ignoring it because it suits your argument?

Worst take on this thread. Makars defense is much better. Plus he's only 23.

EK didn’t play defense, Makar just sucks at it. Makar’s defense looks pretty good in this thread, but will get ripped apart in the inevitable one comparing him to Lidstrom.