Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[PAZ]

Giordano’s win kind of came out of nowhere. I can see a variety of guys having comeback seasons like Seth Jones or Nurse or Werenski and I can see younger guys taking the jump as Fox and Makar did.

Giordano was constantly on the Norris ballots ranging from 5-20 the previous 5 years before winning the Norris. The trophy is just as much as about reputation as it is actual play. Fox is the first player in a long time that won the Norris without having a Norris reputation, and that’s also because his main competition was Makar.

There is potential for guys like Slavin or Nurse to have a huge year, but I don’t think either are good enough to have a better year than the aforementioned names.

 

[triggrman]

Giordano was constantly on the Norris ballots ranging from 5-20 the previous 5 years before winning the Norris. The trophy is just as much as about reputation as it is actual play. Fox is the first player in a long time that won the Norris without having a Norris reputation, and that’s also because his main competition was Makar.

There is potential for guys like Slavin or Nurse to have a huge year, but I don’t think either are good enough to have a better year than the aforementioned names.

If Fox is in a smaller market he doesn't win it, being in NY really helped him.

 

[tucker3434]

Accolades aside, I'd take the current version of Makar over the best version of Karlsson. I think Makar is even better than his numbers show and doesn't get enough credit for being a net positive on the defensive side. He'd be a top 4 D if you deleted his offense entirely. I'm not one of those people that gets all bent out of shape on how a defenseman adds value. Goal spread is really all that matters to me. Makar's low 2 xGA/60 combined with his raw point totals create an insane level of value. If you want to give prime EK the edge on offense, it doesn't offset Makar's advantage on D.

As for the awards, the only things that will keep Makar from winning multiple Norrises are:
1. He's never played 80 games. It's tough to be that much better than the guys that are. He's been the best defenseman in the league for 2 years now, but only narrowly won one Norris.
2. Voter fatigue. Now that he isn't "due" anymore, I could see it going to new faces. If Makar had already won a Norris, I doubt he wins this year.

Ultimately, if Makar averages 80+ points in ~70 games over the next several years while being only a Norris finalist, does that tarnish his reputation? I don't think so. Karlsson's peak was so brief, it's only a matter of time until Makar passes him on the career lists.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

Will be funny if karlsson retires without even beating Shea Weber for total goals considering the scoring hype on Karlsson in this forum.

Going to take EK around another 10 years almost at his current scoring pace to beat Webers total

 

[Buck Naked]

Will be funny if karlsson retires without even beating Shea Weber for total goals considering the scoring hype on Karlsson in this forum.

Going to take EK around another 10 years almost at his current scoring pace to beat Webers total

Honestly don't think it changes anything for the EK fanboys whether he scores more goals than Weber or not, and why should it. But glad it amuses you!

 

[Kranix]

I like that people still shit on Karlsson as if he was overrated pre-2017-18.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

Honestly don't think it changes anything for the EK fanboys whether he scores more goals than Weber or not, and why should it. But glad it amuses you!

I think if you want to compare EK as the best player etc it matters - why isnt he even out-scoring Weber if he's such a game changing offensive defensemen?

 

[Buck Naked]

I think if you want to compare EK as the best player etc it matters - why isnt he even out-scoring Weber if he's such a game changing offensive defensemen?

Because slapping pucks from the blueline's never been the best way to measure how good a defenseman is. EK's got 80 less assists than Weber got points in his career. In 200 less games. Between the two, Weber is by far my favorite (and one of my favorite Ds of all time), but I'm not dumb enough to try to downplay how good EK was with anything Weber did. Maybe other than his slapshot..

 

[Boxscore]

Yes, without question. His young resume is absolutely frightening. Norris, Cup, Conn Smythe. Playoff points per game only behind Orr. This kid is reshaping the position the way Orr and Coffey did.

 

[AyeBah]

The whole idea that you have to play for a bad team to get any individual recognition is pure trash. If you’re using cup wins to detract from a players value, you’re missing the whole point of the game.

Or Makar just farms power play and secondary points via the stacked forward core

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Or Makar just farms power play and secondary points via the stacked forward core

Scoring goals (PP or ES) and winning the cup is the point of the sport. Scoring meaningless goals in the regular season for a bad team is not the point of the sport.

 

[tucker3434]

Or Makar just farms power play and secondary points via the stacked forward core

That stuff is tracked. Makar had 57 primary points this year. Karlsson never had that many. Only 36 of those were even strength. Karlsson matched that once in 15-16.

The 28 goals Makar had were the highest either of them had ever had. 9 were on the PP, but it isn't like Karlsson has ever had 19 goals at even strength.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

Imagine if Karlsson could have his prime years on a stacked team like Colorado, Tampa etc.

He dragged a garbage team to the conference finals past his prime, skating on one leg.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Probably on track to, but Karlsson was the best defenceman of the 2010s and was great for longer than Makar has even played in the NHL.

No he wasn't. Keith was better and Doughty as well, maybe even Chara. EK just put up a lot of points

 

[JackSlater]

No he wasn't. Keith was better and Doughty as well, maybe even Chara. EK just put up a lot of points

Oh, thanks for letting me know with your insightful post.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Oh, thanks for letting me know with your insightful post.

Back at ya

 

[umma gumma]

That stuff is tracked. Makar had 57 primary points this year. Karlsson never had that many. Only 36 of those were even strength. Karlsson matched that once in 15-16.

The 28 goals Makar had were the highest either of them had ever had. 9 were on the PP, but it isn't like Karlsson has ever had 19 goals at even strength.

I don't think its as cut and dry you're making it seem. In 15-16 Karlsson finished 21pts clear of Mark Stone, 23pts ahead of Hoffman, and 26pts ahead of Bobby Ryan. Those are massive gaps. Maybe he gets more if 3 players on his team had more points than him?

 

[didimentionlarseller]

Probably on track to, but Karlsson was the best defenceman of the 2010s and was great for longer than Makar has even played in the NHL.

Weber > Karlsson

 

[JackSlater]

Weber >>>>>>>>>>> Karlsson

Good point - you've sold me.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

Good point - you've sold me.

how is it less of an argument than your statement of "Karlsson was the best defenceman of the 2010s and was great for longer than Makar has even played in the NHL."

Weber was a much better player over a much much much much longer period of time than Karlsson

 

[JackSlater]

how is it less of an argument than your statement of "Karlsson was the best defenceman of the 2010s and was great for longer than Makar has even played in the NHL."

Weber was a much better player over a much much much much longer period of time than Karlsson

My post was related to the topic, yours was the equivalent of saying "nah" plus with a bunch of greater than symbols that you edited out. You can say it I guess, for whatever it's worth.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

My post was related to the topic, yours was the equivalent of saying "nah" plus with a bunch of greater than symbols that you edited out. You can say it I guess, for whatever it's worth.

ok but I reiterate my point that Weber played at a much higher level than EK did and did it for a much longer period of time

you call EK the best defender of the 2010's I say Weber was actually that player (I dont even say he was the best really like you will with EK but I know he was better than Karlsson) - so its relevant to this thread

 

[JackSlater]

ok but I reiterate my point that Weber played at a much higher level than EK did and did it for a much longer period of time

you call EK the best defender of the 2010's I say Weber was actually that player (I dont even say he was the best really like you will with EK but I know he was better than Karlsson) - so its relevant to this thread

At least you've given a reason, and though Karlsson was better it's true that Weber was better for longer, barring a resurgence from Karlsson.

 

[Crossfire Hurricane]

I don't think its as cut and dry you're making it seem. In 15-16 Karlsson finished 21pts clear of Mark Stone, 23pts ahead of Hoffman, and 26pts ahead of Bobby Ryan. Those are massive gaps. Maybe he gets more if 3 players on his team had more points than him?

Finishing 23 points ahead of THE Mike Hoffman? Impressive.
Finishing two points behind Nick Mackinnon or whatever? Pathetic.

 

[umma gumma]

Finishing 23 points ahead of THE Mike Hoffman? Impressive.
Finishing two points behind Nick Mackinnon or whatever? Pathetic.

Well, that went over your head. And you're kind of helping my case.