Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Chuck1377]

Ive got no skin in this game as a nucks fan, but I have watched both play about an equal amount. Watched both playoff runs they've had, and I'll say as a neutral fan I'm taking Makar 10 times out of 10.

 

[sdf]

 

[Panthaz89]

They’re similar, but Makar has WAY more help. In Ottawa, the best team Karlsson ever played on was a 44 win team (twice). Once was his rookie year (2009/10), when he was definitely not in his prime, and the other time was a garbage team that prime Karlsson dragged to the conference finals (2016/17), despite playing through a brutal injury (he was never really the same again after that - still had the puck skills but his skating never truly recovered). Makar has played on nothing but stacked Avs teams so far.

Makar is amazing, and putting up unreal numbers, but he has WAY more help, and it’s also a higher scoring era now. I’m not at all sure Makar outperforms Karlsson on the 2011/12 to 2016/17 Sens, which was Karlsson’s prime IMO.

Karlsson was utter trash on D in the regular season if anyone has any semblance of memory

 

[hamzarocks]

Makar honestly is to Orr what McDavid is to Greztky

Very miniscule chance he can overtake him but a once in a lifetime talent who has a chance however little it may be to get to that GOAT tier level

EK65 was elite, the best for half a decade. But he's not comparable to Makar.

 

[TheBeard]

In this series so far? The Avs would be winning without him in the lineup.

In the playoffs overall? Totally different story.

Nothing would have changed in any of the series

 

[Puckstop40]

Is the narrative back to that Makar is an elite defender? Did everyone conveniently forget that he was directly responsible for Tampa's 2nd goal in Game 1? If you're going to make claims that Makar is the greatest defenseman over the past 15 years because of his defending, then he can't really be making such crucial mistakes in such critical moments of games.

Lidstrom is a phony

 

[majormajor]

If prime Karlsson was playing right now, no one would care about him

I don't think that's true at all. I think he might have had a few seasons like the one Josi just had. For me there's a gap between that and what Makar is doing, but it would still be a hell of a season and probably get a lot of Norris votes.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

It's rich how people point to my post as hypocrisy. The point of my post was to point out the hypocrisy of all of you. Back in Karlsson's day, a play like that would've had multiple posts on the main forum, and being passed around as definitive proof of Karlsson's poor defensive play. It's especially rich to hear Racoon Jesus label me a hypocrite for that since that was his favorite past time on this site. But I guess he doesn't like it when the shoe is on the other foot.

I will say it again. During the 2017 playoffs, Karlsson was on the ice for 31% of his team's 5v5 GA. Makar has been on the ice for over 50%. The difference in defense between these two players is non-existent, to pretend otherwise is stupidity. Both are capable of shutting things down when they need to, and both have similar flaws in their defensive game (in front of the net namely). People loved the defensive lowlights being posted when it was Karlsson, but we're just going to ignore them when they happen to Makar. Okay, makes sense to me. Let's get some consistency is all I'm asking. We can't parrot the same garbage about Makar being "far better" defensively than Karlsson because Racoon Jesus made it his full-time job to wait for a mistake and them spamming the video in every thread on the forum, when videos like this exist as well:



The difference between me and biased posters like Racoon Jesus is that I will fully admit Makar is an elite defender most of the time. I don't believe a single misplay (even if in crucial moments, which Karlsson did not do in the playoffs) defines Makar's defensive game, nor does it define Karlsson's.

I like that you doubled down and are now using 5v5 goals against as a metric of defensive prowess...while forgetting Karlsson led the league in that as well.

Keep going though. It is truly, truly fun watching you make the exact reverse arguments, slow motion schaudenfraude car crash

 

[tucker3434]

Nothing would have changed in any of the series

I’m pretty sure Makar has the highest shot differential of any defenseman in this postseason. Yeah the Avs are good but I don’t think anyone can delete that and not skip a beat.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I’m pretty sure Makar has the highest shot differential of any defenseman in this postseason. Yeah the Avs are good but I don’t think anyone can delete that and not skip a beat.

Welcome to HF, where being the best player on the best team is seen as a detriment.

TBL fans will tell you the same thing happens. Hedman is carried, Kucherov is carried, Vasi is carried. By who? Depends on who is being discussed at the moment, but the team, of course, of which they are most certainly not the leading individuals!

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Welcome to HF, where being the best player on the best team is seen as a detriment.

TBL fans will tell you the same thing happens. Hedman is carried, Kucherov is carried, Vasi is carried. By who? Depends on who is being discussed at the moment, but the team, of course, of which they are most certainly not the leading individuals!

Nobody (at least as far as I can see) has said that Makar is “carried.” That’s a strawman to distract from the actual point that there’s two played on vastly different teams.

Playing on a good team gives you a much better chance to win a cup. I mean that’s just simple logic. No superstar has ever led a crappy team to a championship. It’s extremely hard to do.

 

[TheBeard]

I’m pretty sure Makar has the highest shot differential of any defenseman in this postseason. Yeah the Avs are good but I don’t think anyone can delete that and not skip a beat.

Nobody (at least as far as I can see) has said that Makar is “carried.” That’s a strawman to distract from the actual point that there’s two played on vastly different teams.

Playing on a good team gives you a much better chance to win a cup. I mean that’s just simple logic. No superstar has ever led a crappy team to a championship. It’s extremely hard to do.

I agree. All the arguments about how “he was drafted to a last place team and now they’re in the cup” is disingenuous.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

View attachment 560142

I like that you doubled down and are now using 5v5 goals against as a metric of defensive prowess...while forgetting Karlsson led the league in that as well.

Keep going though. It is truly, truly fun watching you make the exact reverse arguments, slow motion schaudenfraude car crash

We're not using raw GA, because that's highly dependent on your team, playing time and goaltending. We're using % because that's comparing you to your teammates. Because we're talking about prime Karlsson, not Karlsson under Dave Cameron when he was asked to do literally everything himself. Do you have an actual counter argument to Makar being on the ice for a much more significant portion of GA in these playoffs than Karlsson at his peak playoff performance? I'm guessing not, just another strawman probably and attacking the poster. It's what you do best. Everyone is biased except you.

You got another strawman? You've only been using them for 8 years now. Funny how you tried to hide your obvious bias behind "oh I don't mind Karlsson, I'm just a big Doughty supporter", yet here you are in a thread throwing out the same old strawmans, the same behavior of ignoring and failing to address every decent point someone makes against you, and trying your damned hardest to downplay Karlsson. The jig is up man, you've been caught.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Nobody (at least as far as I can see) has said that Makar is “carried.” That’s a strawman to distract from the actual point that there’s two played on vastly different teams.

Playing on a good team gives you a much better chance to win a cup. I mean that’s just simple logic. No superstar has ever led a crappy team to a championship. It’s extremely hard to do.

Your STATED premise is the idea that the two players are in vastly different situations. No one reasonable disagrees with that, and unfortunately a large part of Karlsson's prime found him on mediocre-at-best teams to put it probably generously. We all lose because of that.

But the implicit premise that you've been going on about for pages is that 'yeah makar is good but the team is good too' and you're, intentionally or not, downplaying the hell out of his performance.

Hence, the criticisms about how you're giving Karlsson the bad team boost.

We're not using raw GA, because that's highly dependent on your team and goaltending. We're using % because that's comparing you to your teammates. Because we're talking about prime Karlsson, not Karlsson under Dave Cameron when he was asked to do literally everything himself. Do you have an actual counter argument to Makar being on the ice for a much more significant portion of GA in these playoffs than Karlsson at his peak playoff performance? I'm guessing not, just another strawman probably and attacking the poster. It's what you do best. Everyone is biased except you.

You got another strawman? You've only been using them for 8 years now. Funny how you tried to hide your obvious bias behind "oh I don't mind Karlsson, I'm just a big Doughty supporter", yet here you are in a thread throwing out the same old strawmans, the same behavior of ignoring and failing to address every decent point someone makes against you, and trying your damned hardest to downplay Karlsson. The jig is up man, you've been caught.

I mean you can go after me all you want but there are a lot of posters pinata-ing your arguments because they're awful and that's got nothing to do with me being here. Let it all out if it makes you feel better, I'm just pointing out that allllll the reasons you fought to show that Karlsson wasn't that bad defensively are the reasons you're now using to try to rip another d-man apart, and we all knew this would happen and called it on you then. It's absolutely and shamelessly transparent.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

We're not using raw GA, because that's highly dependent on your team and goaltending. We're using % because that's comparing you to your teammates. Because we're talking about prime Karlsson, not Karlsson under Dave Cameron when he was asked to do literally everything himself. Do you have an actual counter argument to Makar being on the ice for a much more significant portion of GA in these playoffs than Karlsson at his peak playoff performance? I'm guessing not, just another strawman probably and attacking the poster. It's what you do best. Everyone is biased except you.

You got another strawman? You've only been using them for 8 years now. Funny how you tried to hide your obvious bias behind "oh I don't mind Karlsson, I'm just a big Doughty supporter", yet here you are in a thread throwing out the same old strawmans, the same behavior of ignoring and failing to address every decent point someone makes against you, and trying your damned hardest to downplay Karlsson. The jig is up man, you've been caught.

Lol using portions or percentage is so stupid. It makes players on good defensive teams look worse than they are. And conversely bad defensive players on bad defensive teams look better.

Player A can have 1GA in a 8-1 win and be on the ice for 100% of the GA for his team. Is he worse than player B of the losing team who was on the ice for 6 goals against?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Lol using portions or percentage is so stupid. It makes players on good defensive teams look worse than they are. And conversely bad defensive players on bad defensive teams look better.

Player A can have 1GA in a 8-1 win and be on the ice for 100% of the GA for his team. Is he worse than player B of the losing team who was on the ice for 6 goals against?

We're talking about a 20 game sample size, not 1 game with your extreme example. And comparing the two after 3 rounds of hockey (2017 vs 2022), Makar was on the ice for more goals against as well, and played more minutes too, so try again.

Poor as the stat may be, what exactly are you offering as a rebuttal other than baseless anecdotal claims that "just watch the games, Makar is way better than Karlsson!"

 

[blankall]

Cale Makar's current run is the best run by a dman since Keith and Doughty's best runs.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

...so, since Makar is apparently already better than prime Swedish Jesus, and yet can't be Canadian Jesus, what with McJesus being Canadian, what Jesus is he??...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Your STATED premise is the idea that the two players are in vastly different situations. No one reasonable disagrees with that, and unfortunately a large part of Karlsson's prime found him on mediocre-at-best teams to put it probably generously. We all lose because of that.

But the implicit premise that you've been going on about for pages is that 'yeah makar is good but the team is good too' and you're, intentionally or not, downplaying the hell out of his performance.

I’m not downplaying his performance.

I’m saying that anyone who says Makar is better by virtue of a cup is ignoring the fact that Karlsson did not have that opportunity.

Then this spiralled into side arguments and strawman crap. Regardless of anything, Markars performance this postseason is awesome. But that on its own is not enough to put him ahead of Karlsson.

Hence, the criticisms about how you're giving Karlsson the bad team boost.

I mean you can go after me all you want but there are a lot of posters pinata-ing your arguments because they're awful and that's got nothing to do with me being here. Let it all out if it makes you feel better, I'm just pointing out that allllll the reasons you fought to show that Karlsson wasn't that bad defensively are the reasons you're now using to try to rip another d-man apart, and we all knew this would happen and called it on you then. It's absolutely and shamelessly transparent.

My arguments are dead on point. Yes, we’ve seen others come in and try to distort them. That’s nothing new.

I’ve watched hockey for a long time. Been on these boards a long time. Every year fans get out over their skis. Right now it’s: ‘Matthews is the best goal scorer since Lemieux’ or ‘McDavid is the best ever’ or ‘Vasi is the greatest of all time’… it’s dumb.

If the thread were phrased differently you’d get a different answer. But instead it’s ‘Makar’s already passed prime Karlsson!!!’

No he hasn’t. And that doesn’t change if he wins the smythe.

He might very well wind up being better but he has to PROVE it and he hasn’t done that yet.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Your STATED premise is the idea that the two players are in vastly different situations. No one reasonable disagrees with that, and unfortunately a large part of Karlsson's prime found him on mediocre-at-best teams to put it probably generously. We all lose because of that.

But the implicit premise that you've been going on about for pages is that 'yeah makar is good but the team is good too' and you're, intentionally or not, downplaying the hell out of his performance.

Hence, the criticisms about how you're giving Karlsson the bad team boost.




I mean you can go after me all you want but there are a lot of posters pinata-ing your arguments because they're awful and that's got nothing to do with me being here. Let it all out if it makes you feel better, I'm just pointing out that allllll the reasons you fought to show that Karlsson wasn't that bad defensively are the reasons you're now using to try to rip another d-man apart, and we all knew this would happen and called it on you then. It's absolutely and shamelessly transparent.

Another strawman! There it is! Gonna start calling you The Scarecrow. I never once ripped into Makar in this thread. Not once. Not once in this thread, not once in any thread on this site. In fact, I called him an elite defender. You heard me, I think he is elite defensively. I just don't think he's as good as prime Karlsson.

Also not surprised there was no legitimate rebuttal either. Just get again, another post attacking the poster. And you're response to this (if there is one) will be more of the same. Strawman and character attacks. Rinse and repeat.

 

[SillyRabbit]

It's hard to say he hasn't surpassed Karlsson.

Honestly Makar may be the most complete D since Orr. And no I'm not exaggerating.

You must be too young to have watched Bourque, Lidstrom and Potvin play.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Last thing I'll say is that I just completely reject the premise that we're forced to accept: that "prime Karlsson" was the guy that occured for a 19 game sample size in 2017 and that we can extrapolate that to his game the rest of the time. and we're just supposed to dismiss all the other evidence to the contrary.

That 2017 playoff model was actually him playing defensively over his head and that 'prime Karlsson' from 2013ish to 2018ish was not that guy. And that we're comparing Makar, who has a couple of years of this behind him already, to that quarter-season-sized sample?

The biggest issue in Karlsson's game was always defensive consistency. He showed he had the ability in 2017; but the other hundreds of games of his career he was the same flawed dude, excellent offensively, average-at-best defensively. Makar has already surpassed him on both fronts. And the incoming Conn Smythe will solidify that.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Another strawman! There it is! Gonna start calling you The Scarecrow. I never once ripped into Makar in this thread. Not once. Not once in this thread, not once in any thread on this site. In fact, I called him an elite defender. You heard me, I think he is elite defensively. I just don't think he's as good as prime Karlsson.

Also not surprised there was no legitimate rebuttal either. Just get again, another post attacking the poster. And you're response to this (if there is one) will be more of the same. Strawman and character attacks. Rinse and repeat.

So Makar is elite defensively, and Karlsson was even better than that?

Sheesh man, get some fresh air. I'm sorry the mere appearance of my user name turns you into a puddle but that's a you problem not a me problem. Cheers.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I’m not downplaying his performance.

I’m saying that anyone who says Makar is better by virtue of a cup is ignoring the fact that Karlsson did not have that opportunity.

Then this spiralled into side arguments and strawman crap. Regardless of anything, Markars performance this postseason is awesome. But that on its own is not enough to put him ahead of Karlsson.

My arguments are dead on point. Yes, we’ve seen others come in and try to distort them. That’s nothing new.

I’ve watched hockey for a long time. Been on these boards a long time. Every year fans get out over their skis. Right now it’s: ‘Matthews is the best goal scorer since Lemieux’ or ‘McDavid is the best ever’ or ‘Vasi is the greatest of all time’… it’s dumb.

If the thread were phrased differently you’d get a different answer. But instead it’s ‘Makar’s already passed prime Karlsson!!!’

No he hasn’t. And that doesn’t change if he wins the smythe.

He might very well wind up being better but he has to PROVE it and he hasn’t done that yet.

And then we'll have to agree to disagree, because that's exactly what's happening with the myth of karlsson, it's dissonant with reality, he was not the 2017 playoff Karlsson for more than that season.

And an 86 point, +48 regular season on the way to a Conn Smythe winning Cup season surpasses anything EK has done.

It's unfortunate he never had the REAL opportunity to do more, but when you're talking about the best of the best, that matters--you can't punish Makar for being on an amazing team and for being the top driving force on that team.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

We're talking about a 20 game sample size, not 1 game with your extreme example. And comparing the two after 3 rounds of hockey (2017 vs 2022), Makar was on the ice for more goals against as well, so try again.

Poor as the stat may be, what exactly are you offering as a rebuttal other than baseless anecdotal claims that "just watch the games, Makar is way better than Karlsson!"

A larger sample size wouldn't change that flawed stat that you admit is poor.

Look at this comparison between Makar and Karlsson. The defensive point share for Makar is significantly higher even compared to Karlsson's peak season.

Cale Makar vs. Erik Karlsson: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Cale Makar and Erik Karlsson including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

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