Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[dmac7719]

People can say that this Makar hype is getting a bit much, but why don't we look at the career beginnings of a group of defensemen that can be seen as some of the greatest to ever play the position. Since Makar has just finished his age 23 season, I will be looking at players up to their age 23 season:

Paul Coffey - Norris placements: 1, 2, 3, 5
Doug Harvey - nothing
Nicklas Lidstrom - Calder placement: 2
Ray Bourque - Calder placement: 1 Norris placement: 2, 3, 3, 4, 4 Hart placement: 5
Erik Karlsson: Norris placement: 1
Denis Potvin: Calder placement: 1 Norris placement: 1, 2, 3 Hart placement: 2
Brian Leetch: Calder placement: 1 Norris placement: 1, 2
Cale Makar: Calder placement: 1 Norris placement: 1, 2 Smythe placement: 1

From this you can see that Makar's Norris and Calder have placed him among many of the greatest defensemen to play the game. And although some of the players that have the same awards as Makar also have more top 3 Norris finishes than Makar, Makar has the Smythe. Something that none of them have. Really, the closest defensemen to Makar in regards to career starts is Denis Potvin.

Yes, Makar has a long ways to go before he can be considered one of the greatest, but his start to his career (time in the league through age 23 season) can be shown to be the best, since Orr.

So being called the greatest, since Orr, really shouldn't be that much of a hot take.

 

[DarrylshutzSydor]

Makar is just like Karlsson - no defense.....

 

[Pierre Larouche]

No he hasn't....

People seem to ignore the teams these guys play on. Karlsson was on trash. And he dominated at a level Makar has not reached... yet.

Last week the same guys on HNIC said he wasn't as good as Karlsson, now they're saying Bobby Orr...

Makar is a special player with ridiculous potential. Let's wait and see before declaring him the next Lidstrom or Harvey or... Orr.

I agree. Karlsson played on shit teams. Period. There was no Stanley Cup team, President's Trophy team of speedsters w/amazing passing and stick handling skills. Karlsson was pretty much alone.

 

[binop7]

I love this thread because some years ago there was a Senators fan who kept arguing about Karlsson being better than Ray Borque and even Bobby Orr.

Don't want to name names but I think that guy is in this thread

 

[Pierre Larouche]

You’re underrating Karlsson pretty badly. He wasn’t garbage defensively. And he was more dominant offensively than Makar.

Makar isn’t at his peak yet. He’s an exciting player… but every time some guy has a great year they’re suddenly better than Gretzky or Orr.

He’s a great player, leave it at that. Please don’t come in here talking like he’s ‘surpassed’ Karlsson, it just undermines the player. It’s like some folks think hockey has only been around since last month.

Makar has incredible potential. Let’s just wait and see what he does with it before annointing him Bobby Orr part II.

Well said.

Alfredsson
Spezza
Fisher
Kovalev
Michalik
Karlsson
Cheechoo
Phillips
Almost certain Redden and Havlat was on the team too when Karlsson was in his prime.

Are you serious?

 

[TheBeard]

From this you can see that Makar's Norris and Calder have placed him among many of the greatest defensemen to play the game. And although some of the players that have the same awards as Makar also have more top 3 Norris finishes than Makar, Makar has the Smythe. Something that none of them have. Really, the closest defensemen to Makar in regards to career starts is Denis Potvin.

The Smythe award is as much if not more a team award than any. Especially at that young age there needs to be a great team already in place to get the opportunity to win that award. This specific argument doesn’t really apply and if you insist on applying it then you also have to take into consideration the teams Karlsson played on as well and thus judge their success accordingly as well.

 

[Chips]

I agree. Karlsson played on shit teams. Period. There was no Stanley Cup team, President's Trophy team of speedsters w/amazing passing and stick handling skills. Karlsson was pretty much alone.

Conversely, I’d say there’s an affect when a star Dman is on a great team with great forwards and even other great Dmen where he doesn’t attack as much and defers to his teammates, sacrificing some of his scoring potential in a way that would make a pure raw stat-watcher (ie points) think he was less talented.


I mean shit, Avs fans early this past season, not having this specific conversation about “best compared to”, said he’s way better with MacK out of the lineup precisely because he defers to him. Mind you, when we talk about “loading up” we’re talking about coaches putting their best three forwards on one line. Bednar really loads up and will much of the time have one of his top two lines out with Makar and Toews a mobile and very good offensive defenseman in his own right.

People using the “less/same points on better team” act like there’s infinite opportunities to score. If anything loading up to an extreme would lead to some “cannibalizing” of each other’s offensive opportunities (I would think more intensely for Dmen than forwards, who would obviously more likely have the green light to go all out and be leading up front). I think a reason Makar improved so much defensively is allowing Toews to attack; much of the threat of that teams approach is that there’s often 5 guys on the ice at the same time all of whom could be a threat to skate it up the ice themselves.

On the Avs they’re making smart available plays because they have that luxury. Makar can defer to MacKinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog, Toews etc at any given time and often does. They defer to him at times, but they do with each other too. **Makar could make an amazing pass or two and or display amazing skating and positioning, followed by multiple amazing passes by his teammates, and he’d get no official recognition for that goal he majorly influenced. Either you were watching it or you didn’t.**

I’d willingly bet if you swapped Makar to Josi’s team he’d have scored more points than he did this season, because that team would be running its offense almost completely through Makar. Guys would constantly defer to him. I mean, look at Josi’s offense this season compared to every past season of his. They lose multiple key offensive contributors over the summer and suddenly a new fan might think he’d been a generational scorer, *and less good of a defender than previous. His situation and approach changed.

Karlsson’s defense over his career was inconsistent. He did have a great and good year defensively while scoring a ton, but there was definitely some “eh” defense over his prime. Wouldn’t surprising if, as with Josi, he took some risk and sacrificed some security to be “the guy” but I didn’t watch him then as much as I watched Josi and Makar this year. (I assume the injuries damage to his skating factored as well in fairness)

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I think to call Karlsson defensively average is a gross exaggeration. He was terrible at defense.

The guy who was terrible at defence led the biggest best on best tournament in points (2014 olympics) and was on the ice for a total of ZERO goals against.

Also said terrible defenseman was a +8 playing most minutes in playoffs one goal away from cup final and next highest player was +5 who was his defensive specialist partner.

Lmfao, some people will never stop.

Karlsson at his peak was excellent both ends. Stop the bull**** with no proof.

Conversely, I’d say there’s an affect when a star Dman is on a great team with great forwards and even other great Dmen where he doesn’t attack as much and defers to his teammates, sacrificing some of his scoring potential in a way that would make a pure raw stat-watcher (ie points) think he was less talented.

Not Karlsson. Him leading Olympics in points while being on ice for 0 goals against demonstrates his excellence. People will never truly know how amazing EK was. He wasn’t scoring like crazy cause he was THE guy. He was doing so because he was among the best of the absolute best in history.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

From this you can see that Makar's Norris and Calder have placed him among many of the greatest defensemen to play the game

You're putting too much weight on the Calder as a historical comparitive tool. With very little exception, only players on the team that won the cup is eligible for the Calder. In addition, generally the all time greats tend to be high draft picks- which go to terrible teams, which don't make the playoffs because they're terrible- and whose players are therefore inelgibile for the Calder. Makar was lucky to be drafted to a team that was terrible because of injuries, while already having most of the pieces for their cup run under contract- or the pieces they would trade for said cup run (ie Barrie for Kadri + Duchene for Girard and Bowem).

 

[TheBeard]

You're putting too much weight on the Calder as a historical comparitive tool. With very little exception, only players on the team that won the cup is eligible for the Calder. In addition, generally the all time greats tend to be high draft picks- which go to terrible teams, which don't make the playoffs because they're terrible- and whose players are therefore inelgibile for the Calder. Makar was lucky to be drafted to a team that was terrible because of injuries, while already having most of the pieces for their cup run under contract- or the pieces they would trade for said cup run (ie Barrie for Kadri + Duchene for Girard and Bowem).

Wrong trophy.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

The answer remains yes, as it was prior to the playoffs.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

The guy who was terrible at defence led the biggest best on best tournament in points (2014 olympics) and was on the ice for a total of ZERO goals against.

when you have to goto the .....2014 Olympic Games?!? to prove Karlsson was a good defender in the NHL then I think you've proven he is bad at defence - im not a Karlsson hater either I watched him a ton when him and PK were coming up

Hes not a great defender in his own end - Olympic Games aside ill give him the olympics I guess

 

[Crossfire Hurricane]

The guy who was terrible at defence led the biggest best on best tournament in points (2014 olympics) and was on the ice for a total of ZERO goals against.

Also said terrible defenseman was a +8 playing most minutes in playoffs one goal away from cup final and next highest player was +5 who was his defensive specialist partner.

Lmfao, some people will never stop.

Karlsson at his peak was excellent both ends. Stop the bull**** with no proof.



Not Karlsson. Him leading Olympics in points while being on ice for 0 goals against demonstrates his excellence. People will never truly know how amazing EK was. He wasn’t scoring like crazy cause he was THE guy. He was doing so because he was among the best of the absolute best in history.

Yeah, there's no way Sweden would have beaten Slovenia without Karlsson. Ziga Jeglic was on a mission.

 

[umma gumma]

when you have to goto the .....2014 Olympic Games?!? to prove Karlsson was a good defender in the NHL then I think you've proven he is bad at defence - im not a Karlsson hater either I watched him a ton when him and PK were coming up

Hes not a great defender in his own end - Olympic Games aside ill give him the olympics I guess

Once again, you do not go deep into the playoffs logging 30+min a night having to carry the heaviest load on a mediocre team that does not blow their opponents out if you are a terrible defender. This isn't a one-and-done tourney. He played 3 rounds and 19 playoff games, several of them in OT (after already playing half the game), against Bergeron, Marchand, Bastardnak, Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Zibanejad, Krieder, etc.... As an added bonus he went through Rask and King Henrik to get to the ECF.

No one is saying he was perfect, but things like 'terrible', and 'an adventure', 'can't defend' is just bullshit. Its also a backhand to the players that didn't 'take advantage' of his shoddy defence and got eliminated. You can't spend 30+ min a night against these players in this league and find success if you are on the ice for half of the game and are a terrible defender. It makes zero sense.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Yeah, there's no way Sweden would have beaten Slovenia without Karlsson. Ziga Jeglic was on a mission.

Lmfao, foolish post.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

when you have to goto the .....2014 Olympic Games?!? to prove Karlsson was a good defender in the NHL then I think you've proven he is bad at defence - im not a Karlsson hater either I watched him a ton when him and PK were coming up

Hes not a great defender in his own end - Olympic Games aside ill give him the olympics I guess

I love how you just completely ignored the 2nd paragraph that involved NHL playoffs. Some of these posts are just brutal and embarrassing.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

I love how you just completely ignored the 2nd paragraph that involved NHL playoffs. Some of these posts are just brutal and embarrassing.

I didnt quote that part because I thought that was very weak also using a single playoff run performance as proof of anyone being the best player in the world or best defender is also a dead end street for me he would need to repeat that performance im really not a hater I just thought your olympic performance comparison was funny

 

[Buck Naked]

I didnt quote that part because I thought that was very weak also using a single playoff run performance as proof of anyone being the best player in the world or best defender is also a dead end street for me he would need to repeat that performance im really not a hater I just thought your olympic performance comparison was funny

Some people in this thread are using a four game series against the Oilers as proof of Makar being the best player in the world.

 

[Crossfire Hurricane]

Lmfao, foolish post.

Sweden played against two legit teams, they beat Finland 2-1 and lost to Canada 3-0. Shutting down Slovenia, Latvia, Switzerland, and the Czechs (led by a 42 year old Jagr) while having Lundqvist behind him sounds a little less impressive in context.

 

[Dominance]

Tell me Karlsson was ever as dominant as this and I’ll call you a f***ing liar. Makar is simultaneously miles ahead defensively.

 

[WF19]

The answer is an easy yes. Calder,Norris,Conn Smythe and a cup in his first 4 years. I am also a Wings fan and despise the Avs.

 

[cave troll]

Makar > Karlsson

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Clearly a lot of people didn't watch Karlsson outside of highlights, because when he was asked to play conservative and focusing on shutting down the opposition defensively, he was always elite at doing it. The problem was he was always asked to carry the team offensively, which meant taking a lot of risks, and risks don't always work out. There's a reason everyone refers to 2016-17 as his peak season, even though his scoring was actually a bit lower from previous seasons, and that's because the new coach actually implemented a proper system, and Karlsson didn't have to do literally everything himself.

If you actually watched both Makar and Karlsson play, you will notice that the two have a different approach to the game, and different responsibilities as players. Because Colorado is a lot deeper than any of the Ottawa teams that Karlsson played on, Makar tends to "pick his spots". He's not going balls-to-the-walls, driving the play, controlling the pace of the game every time he's out on the ice, which is how Karlsson played during his prime. Makar holds onto the puck a whole lot less than Karlsson did, and his typical shift is him passing the puck off to a teammate to rush up the ice, waiting for the right moment for space to open up in the offensive zone, and then he'll use his speed to get open and create a dangerous scoring chance. That's different than what Karlsson's typical shift looked like, which was try to breakup the play in the defensive zone, skate the puck out of danger, skate the puck up the ice, circle around in the offensive zone with the puck until a teammate gets open. Karlsson never had the luxury of picking his spots, when he stepped out onto the ice, everyone on the other team knew to focus all their attention on him. Makar never had that problem, he has MacKinnon and Rantanen to divert the attention away from him. He's allowed to sit back and get lost in the play, which is exactly when he burns you. Nobody ever looked off Karlsson, and if you did, you coach was not going to be very pleased with you.

I'm not sure why Makar's defensive game is being talked about like he was way better than Karlsson. I actually found him to be far worse defensively this past playoffs than Karlsson was during the 2017 run. Makar was particularly bad against Tampa Bay in the finals, made a lot of egregious defensive errors in his own end, and at important times in the game as well. And for a guy who has the luxury of playing a much more conservative style than Karlsson ever did, that's simply unacceptable if the claim is going to be that he already surpassed him.

 

[IvanMalison]

and

Tell me Karlsson was ever as dominant as this and I’ll call you a f***ing liar. Makar is simultaneously miles ahead defensively.

Anyone saying no needs to watch this video. No one in the league looks remotely close to this.

 

[goonybird]

He is the best defenceman since Bourque