Proposal: Habs rebuild

[ole ole]

IMO just ignore that and move on, no reason to entertain them

True. I still like your 1st 2nd and Pitlick offer out of anything i've seen.

 

[GrandmaCookie]

Awful for the Flames.

Coleman >>> Toffoli, Pelletier/Zary >>> Perreault + 2nd, 1st >>>>>>>>> nothing

The value might be off, but I know you are just looking to be provocative with that statement. Toffoli is a superior player to Coleman, let's not kid ourselves. I used him for cap space because of his salary but he is a 3rd liner while Toffoli is a solid top 6 winger.

Blake Coleman is basically Mathieu Perreault 3 years younger.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

The value might be off, but I know you are just looking to be provocative with that statement. Toffoli is a superior player to Coleman, let's not kid ourselves. I used him for cap space because of his salary but he is a 3rd liner while Toffoli is a solid top 6 winger.

Blake Coleman is basically Mathieu Perreault 3 years younger.

Toffoli is not better than Coleman, that's just silly. Coleman's production and puck-luck hasn't been high this year but he has been one of the best defensive forwards in the entirety of the NHL for multiple years now. He is 4th in SOG this year for the Flames but is plagued by his 4.8 S%.

 

[GrandmaCookie]

Toffoli is not better than Coleman, that's just silly.

What is silly is saying that Coleman >>> Toffoli

Coleman's production and puck-luck hasn't been high this year but he has been one of the best defensive forwards in the entirety of the NHL for multiple years now. He is 4th in SOG this year for the Flames but is plagued by his 4.8 S%.

It hasn't been either for Toffoli, with 7.8 S%, but he still outscores Coleman by more than twice the points this season with less games played.

In the past 2 season, Toffoli had 61 points in 78 games.
Coleman had 39 in 84.

Toffoli always had much better FF% and CF% than Coleman in his career, even this season.

The defensive gap between Coleman and Toffoli doesn't justify the offensive gap between the two.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

What is silly is saying that Coleman >>> Toffoli


It hasn't been either for Toffoli, with 7.8 S%, but he still outscores Coleman by more than twice the points this season.

In the past 2 season, Toffoli had 61 points in 78 games with less games played.
Coleman had 39 in 84.

Toffoli always had much better FF% and CF% than Coleman in his career, even this season.

The defensive gap between Coleman and Toffoli doesn't justify the offensive gap between the two.

Lets try that math again, Toffoli has 88 points in his previous 2 seasons and 120 games played, 20 of those points were on the man advantage and 3 short handed, Coleman has 63 pointes in the previous 2 seasons of 121 games, 4 of those points were on the man advantage and 6 shot handed. Over those 2 seasons Coleman played a total of ~29 minutes on the man advantage, whereas Toffoli played a total of ~271 minutes on the man advantage.
To summarize Toffoli had 65 EV points over the previous 2 seasons, and Coleman had 53 EV points over those same 2 seasons. I would say Colemans elite defensive game more than bridges that gap.

Even this year and last Toffoli has barely had a better CF/60 than Coleman but Coleman's CA/60 has been substantially better than Toffoli's. (as shown below)

 

[GrandmaCookie]

Lets try that math again, Toffoli has 88 points in his previous 2 seasons and 120 games played, 20 of those points were on the man advantage and 3 short handed, Coleman has 63 pointes in the previous 2 seasons of 121 games, 4 of those points were on the man advantage and 6 shot handed. Over those 2 seasons Coleman played a total of ~29 minutes on the man advantage, whereas Toffoli played a total of ~271 minutes on the man advantage.
To summarize Toffoli had 65 EV points over the previous 2 seasons, and Coleman had 53 EV points over those same 2 seasons. I would say Colemans elite defensive game more than bridges that gap.

Even this year and last Toffoli has barely had a better CF/60 than Coleman but Coleman's CA/60 has been substantially better than Toffoli's. (as shown below)

I was talking about 2020-2021 and 2021-2022 for the past 2 seasons... Try the math again and you will see I am right.

CF% and FF% for Toffoli in his career

has always been much better than Coleman

 

[McJedi]

Toffoli , Perreault, 2nd 2022 (practically a 1st) for Coleman, Pelletier(or Zary), 2022 1st?

Thats worse than the OPs offer. Toffoli doesn’t carry anywhere close to the kind of value you’re projecting. He’s not getting the Habs two firsts. Dude was a UFA a year ago. Guys as good or better than Toffoli hit UFA ever year.

do I think the Flames would trade Coleman, Pelletier and a 2022 1st for Andre Burakovsky, Darren Helm and a 2nd?

No. I don’t. They’d tell Sakic to F off and should. And Bura is better, faster and younger than Toffoli. Man… you’re off the reservation with your thoughts on player value.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I was talking about 2020-2021 and 2021-2022 for the past 2 seasons... Try the math again and you will see I am right.

CF% and FF% for Toffoli in his career

View attachment 495379

has always been much better than Coleman

View attachment 495378

Notice the "Corsi (All)" at the top? That indicates it includes all situations, so it includes PP time. Which is why you should be looking at EV only since Coleman does not play on the Power Play

 

[GrandmaCookie]

Thats worse than the OPs offer. Toffoli doesn’t carry anywhere close to the kind of value you’re projecting. He’s not getting the Habs two firsts. Dude was a UFA a year ago. Guys as good or better than Toffoli hit UFA ever year.

do I think the Flames would trade Coleman, Pelletier and a 2022 1st for Andre Burakovsky, Darren Helm and a 2nd?

No. I don’t. They’d tell Sakic to F off and should. And Bura is better, faster and younger than Toffoli. Man… you’re off the reservation with your thoughts on player value.

You are right, and I said I tought Calgary wasn't a good trading partner for Montreal, I just didn't saw another way of making Toffoli cap hit fitting with Flames cap other than getting a big contract back(Coleman) since Lucic seemed to be off limits for their fans.

The 2nd from Montreal is going to be high and the first from Calgary is going to be low.. So it really depends on how much you value your prospect and how much you value Toffoli, which you don't seem to value in your case.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

You are right, and I said I tought Calgary wasn't a good trading partner for Montreal, I just didn't saw another way of making Toffoli cap hit fitting with Flames cap other than getting a big contract back(Coleman) since Lucic seemed to be off limits for their fans.

The 2nd from Montreal is going to be high and the first from Calgary is going to be low.. So it really depends on how much you value your prospect and how much you value Toffoli, which you don't seem to value in your case.

Flames have loads of cap space this summer and roughly 3-3.5M TDL cap space, again back to my original proposal. 1st + 2nd + Pitlick. You will not get a better offer than that on here.

You seem really misinformed on who Coleman is if you think he has less value than Lucic

 

[McJedi]

You are right, and I said I tought Calgary wasn't a good trading partner for Montreal, I just didn't saw another way of making Toffoli cap hit fitting with Flames cap other than getting a big contract back(Coleman) since Lucic seemed to be off limits for their fans.

The 2nd from Montreal is going to be high and the first from Calgary is going to be low.. So it really depends on how much you value your prospect and how much you value Toffoli, which you don't seem to value in your case.

Toffoli has some value. Two firsts of value? No. Not that much value.

flames probably picking in early to mid 20s so moving back to 35 isn’t a nothing burger.

Mathieu Perreault is a dime a dozen 33 year old bottom six forward on a bad team. He isn’t worth anything.

 

[GrandmaCookie]

Flames have loads of cap space this summer and roughly 3-3.5M TDL cap space, again back to my original proposal. 1st + 2nd + Pitlick. You will not get a better offer than that on here.

You seem really misinformed on who Coleman is if you think he has less value than Lucic

I saw him play against the Habs and focused on him last playoff since he was UFA, didn't taught he was >>> Toffoli, since Toffoli is responsible defensively and I consider him a bigger threat offensively than Coleman. You probably know more about him than me tho.

I'm sure the Habs would be interested in your offer, I was just looking for Pelletier because it would have gave Habs a faster rebuild asset. A late first 2022 is probably not going to be effective before 2024-2025, but I would still take it.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I saw him play against the Habs and focused on him last playoff since he was UFA, didn't taught he was >>> Toffoli, since Toffoli is responsible defensively and I consider him a bigger threat offensively than Coleman. You probably know more about him than me tho.

I'm sure the Habs would be interested in your offer, I was just looking for Pelletier because it would have gave Habs a faster rebuild asset. A late first 2022 is probably not going to be effective before 2024-2025, but I would still take it.

Unless you are trading Suzuki Pelletier is 100% untouchable from the Flames, he would only be available in a package for a true 1C with term

 

[McJedi]

I saw him play against the Habs and focused on him last playoff since he was UFA, didn't taught he was >>> Toffoli, since Toffoli is responsible defensively and I consider him a bigger threat offensively than Coleman. You probably know more about him than me tho.

I'm sure the Habs would be interested in your offer, I was just looking for Pelletier because it would have gave Habs a faster rebuild asset. A late first 2022 is probably not going to be effective before 2024-2025, but I would still take it.

Pelletier is every bit as good a prospect as Guhle. He’s over a PPG in the AHL. And not just a secondary assist guy either. He scores goals. Flames have something there. I wouldn’t trade trade Pelletier for Toffoli straight up. That’s going to be a valuable player for the flames. And on an ELC. He’s also from Quebec. You’re smoking something powerful and illegal if you think Toffoli lands him and a 2022 1st. Even if you send back a 2022 2nd.
TheAHL.com | The American Hockey League

 

[Sparky93]

Unless you are trading Suzuki Pelletier is 100% untouchable from the Flames, he would only be available in a package for a true 1C with term

That's just your perspective and a complete exaggeration. There's all sorts of young, promising players that he could potentially be available for.

 

[ole ole]

Toffoli is not better than Coleman, that's just silly. Coleman's production and puck-luck hasn't been high this year but he has been one of the best defensive forwards in the entirety of the NHL for multiple years now. He is 4th in SOG this year for the Flames but is plagued by his 4.8 S%.

Please .Coleman best season was 36 pts.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

That's just your perspective and a complete exaggeration. There's all sorts of young, promising players that he could potentially be available for.

From Montreal? How many players do they have to offer that you would move him for?

 

[GrandmaCookie]

Pelletier is every bit as good a prospect as Guhle. He’s over a PPG in the AHL. And not just a secondary assist guy either. He scores goals. Flames have something there. I wouldn’t trade trade Pelletier for Toffoli straight up. That’s going to be a valuable player for the flames. And on an ELC. He’s also from Quebec. You’re smoking something powerful and illegal if you think Toffoli lands him and a 2022 1st. Even if you send back a 2022 2nd.
TheAHL.com | The American Hockey League

Yeah I was greedy on the ask, but you never know with prospect. Pelletier could bust for all we now. Caufield had the same value last season and his stock his dropping quickly now, despite his great play in the AHL/NHL in 2020-2021.

You know what you get with Toffoli, a solid top 6 winger good for around 20 goals 50 points, Pelletier might never reach that level.

 

[McJedi]

Yeah I was greedy on the ask, but you never know with prospect. Pelletier could bust for all we now. Caufield had the same value last season and his stock his dropping quickly now, despite his great play in the AHL/NHL in 2020-2021.

You know what you get with Toffoli, a solid top 6 winger good for around 20 goals 50 points, Pelletier might never reach that level.

But he may and he may exceed that level of play. He’s just 20 and kicking butt in the AHL. No chance Toffoli nets a prospect of his caliber. 0.00%.

Toffoli turns 30 in a few months. He seems like a guy that the Habs should hold onto for a bit in hopes he improves his value.

sure Caufield and Suzuki have seen their value decline. But who cares. That’s in a vacuum. Neither guy is getting traded so that’s irrelevant to any meaningful discussion. Same thing if Caufield scores 12 goals in February. Means his theoretical value has improved greatly. And he’s still not being traded in either instance.

it’s pretty silly to “value” rookies on ELCs. They rarely get traded. No way flames trade Pelletier.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Please .Coleman best season was 36 pts.

Points are not everything, again he is one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL

 

[ole ole]

Notice the "Corsi (All)" at the top? That indicates it includes all situations, so it includes PP time. Which is why you should be looking at EV only since Coleman does not play on the Power Play

Who's fault is it that Coleman isn't good enough to play on the PP?
Every point counts including PP points.
Like it was already pointed out.
In the past 2 season, Toffoli had 61 points in 78 games.
Coleman had 39 in 84.
All your excuses can't change that fact.

Toffoli > Coleman.

 

[ole ole]

Points are not everything, again he is one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL

You know how many times i've heard that about a player.
While Toffoli is defensively responsible not as good defensively as Coleman he sure makes up the difference by being a lot more offensive.

Again i'd rather have your offer of 1st + 2nd + Pitlick. A very good offer i wouldn't refuse.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

You know how many times i've heard that about a player.
While Toffoli is defensively responsible not as good defensively as Coleman he sure makes up the difference by being a lot more offensive.

In the previous 2 seasons he was 12 points more effective than Coleman at EV as I showed above as shown above

 

[ole ole]

In the previous 2 seasons he was 12 points more effective than Coleman at EV as I showed above as shown above

In the previous 2 seasons while playing in 6 less games he was 22 points more effective than Coleman . PERIOD.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

In the previous 2 seasons he was 22 points more effective than Coleman while playing in 6 less games.. PERIOD.

None of those numbers are correct. Where did you pull them from?