Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[deprw]

Are you aware of the plugs that were on that Team Canada roster? Didn't come close to resembling the typical B/C (Team Canada) level NHL talent that usually is available.

You realize that some other countries had even worse plugs, when you have group that consist more of a role players you think you could implement system easier. If you have those stars in there it should be harder. 5v5 Finnish plugs could skate around your guys even though they should have been better, because Canada was more talented in that sense.

 

[koyvoo]

Where was the old folks home?

Measuring the impact of an elite two way centre vs a dynamic offensive winger is very hard, but most agree the former has a far greater impact on winning.

Matthews is usually worth his money. Marner, not so much.

Well, at the time that both were signed, all things being equal, the guy who actually produced the huge year had a better argument, or should have, and even then, people were crying about giving money to a guy who earned it, and not a peep about the other guy getting on potentially putting up those big numbers (which in reality, only came when paired with the other guy).

As far as being worth it now? I don’t care if another 5 straight rockets comes for Matthews or if Marner gets over 100 pats every season. It’s now been five straight years that both have failed to play and produce to their standards and abilities in the playoffs, and until that changes, I’ll consider both contracts bad.

 

[deprw]

yup I would have, I didn't think and still don't think coaching was the real problem, but it was obvious Dubas and Babcock were on different pages, and he wasn't the right coach. We all knew Keefe was the GM's boy and didn't even interview anyone else, that's on the GM for being so narrow minded. He thinks he's way starter than he actually is, and if not for the misguided faith of the President he's be rightfully unemployed this very minute...........

I think Dubas would have liked to can Babcock earlier, but he was forced back then to continue with Babcock. Keefe was groomed here and was interviewed by other clubs at the time.

 

[sparxx87]

Well, at the time that both were signed, all things being equal, the guy who actually produced the huge year had a better argument, or should have, and even then, people were crying about giving money to a guy who earned it, and not a peep about the other guy getting on potentially putting up those big numbers (which in reality, only came when paired with the other guy).

As far as being worth it now? I don’t care if another 5 straight rockets comes for Matthews or if Marner gets over 100 pats every season. It’s now been five straight years that both have failed to play and produce to their standards and abilities in the playoffs, and until that changes, I’ll consider both contracts bad.

You’re missing the point. Matthews has far more responsibility as a centreman, the much harder position. Players who can play elite at this position are more valuable than someone who can be elite at wing.

Any similar numbers need to be handicapped heavily for the centre if we’re trying to be honest about actual impact.

Shortstops who can hit and defend are valued much higher than a left fielder or first baseman. Same concept.

 

[deprw]

True, but there’s a lot we don’t know about the Nylander situation so it’s hard to say.

I just look at the numbers once they’re plugged in. Kadri, Rielly and Anderson all looked very good as core pieces to set the bar for the young guys.

Andersen was one of the reasons that we lost those three first round series. He wasn't good enough.

 

[sparxx87]

Andersen was one of the reasons that we lost those three first round series. He wasn't good enough.

Yeah, I don’t agree. Just like I don’t hang Campbell for this year.

Both could have been better, but neither was any worse than some of their teammates in front of them.

 

[egd27]

Maybe it a sign that one soft goal doesn't need to mean game over, even for the Leafs.

It would seem that depends on who lets the bad goal in.

 

[AllDay28]

Or drew a line in the sand with Bill. When he went to Europe, then New York, to make sure he and his agent were okay, I knew they had the upper hand, despite Kyle having literally all the cards. I’ll be in Toronto if you want to come and talk, I’m not flying to Europe to make sure Willie is okay. The Bill deal looks fine now, but it set the table. Agents love Dubas, that’s the worst indictment imaginable.

ya they love him so much that Tavares took less money to sign here. Those agents love taking less so they get less. It’s like player agent 101

Simmonds took less

Thornton took less

spezza took less

all these player agents love Dubas that they sign here for less. Boy he’s a sucker


Ironically the only bad contract is Marners, but he had to be signed because he’s a Ontario boy and we didn’t have enough of them. Remember?

 

[Rare Jewel]

Andersen was one of the reasons that we lost those three first round series. He wasn't good enough.

Nah.

He might be partially culpable for one of them ('18 Bos), but it's been a collective effort (of lack of).

 

[egd27]

Who would you hire?

Gerard Gallant should be a strong candidate.

Works for me. Took a team of essentially 3rd liners that had never played together to the SCF.

 

[Menzinger]

I think Dubas would have liked to can Babcock earlier, but he was forced back then to continue with Babcock. Keefe was groomed here and was interviewed by other clubs at the time.

From an external pov it looks like Dubas' wanted to dump Babcock after the 2019 playoffs - recall he refused to guarantee Babcock would be back during the post playoff interview session. To me seemed like either Shanny or the board wouldn't approve a firing just then (likely in part due to the money owed to Babs).

 

[DarkKnight]

ya they love him so much that Tavares took less money to sign here. Those agents love taking less so they get less. It’s like player agent 101

Simmonds took less

Thornton took less

spezza took less

all these player agents love Dubas that they sign here for less. Boy he’s a sucker


Ironically the only bad contract is Marners, but he had to be signed because he’s a Ontario boy and we didn’t have enough of them. Remember?

What a horrible counter. Air ball.

 

[rumman]

But he’s saying the process could be under way, but it takes a long time.

...I think?

I’ve heard this from a few others, too.

Better late than never I suppose?

 

[rumman]

ya they love him so much that Tavares took less money to sign here. Those agents love taking less so they get less. It’s like player agent 101

Simmonds took less

Thornton took less

spezza took less

all these player agents love Dubas that they sign here for less. Boy he’s a sucker


Ironically the only bad contract is Marners, but he had to be signed because he’s a Ontario boy and we didn’t have enough of them. Remember?

Yeah, lots of team were competing with the Leafs for the likes of Thornton and Simmons........

 

[hotpaws]

It would seem that depends on who lets the bad goal in.

lol , so true

If Andy was in net this series allowing 3 goals while he was swimming as well as a few very stoppable short side goals and then topped it off by allowing a beauty of a muffin for the opening goal of game 7 no one would be crapping on M and M .

 

[deprw]

Nah.

He might partially culpable for one of them ('18 Bos), but it's been a collective effort (of lack of).

That too but goalie that forfeits first shot of the game consistently is something that hurts team way too much. Campbell is reliable and he is basically journeyman backup.

 

[deprw]

Better late than never I suppose?

For Capitals it took 12 years.

 

[sparxx87]

For Capitals it took 12 years.

And drafting Evgeni Kuznetsov and John Carlson in the late first.

 

[egd27]

lol , so true

If Andy was in net this series allowing 3 goals while he was swimming as well as a few very stoppable short side goals and then topped it off by allowing a beauty of a muffin for the opening goal of game 7 no one would be crapping on M and M .

No Babcock, no Andersen, no Gardiner, Reilly played well, so we had to go looking for a new scapegoat.

Thank goodness the coach never tried any adjustments to his top line so we can pin this one on Mitch.

 

[nuck]

I think I'm reading from even the most critical that the biggest mistake was signing Tavares because the other contracts are being explained away by all of us one way or another.

It was unnecessary on a club that needed defense most of all. Not like in the pre Matthews era where we were hoping for Kadri to maybe unseat Boz from the top line. And it lit the fuse for the big 3 to look at that fat deal and demand their own. And it put the club in a situation where paying to move Marleau cost them a Jarvis or a Holloway And he may not age well. I didn't want him much but I wasn't cursing KD for getting him. How can you feel bad about adding Tavares? Hindsight is always 20-20 but the overpays for the big 3 wouldn't have have been as big an issue and Marleau could have played out his deal or at least stayed until the last bonus money was paid out (he was good enough to return a 3rd round pick a year ago).

I believe Dubas made the deal because he wanted that free-but-for money asset and not because he thought the team desperately needed a second #1c. Too bad Pietrangelo wasn't a UFA that year instead.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Who are people suggesting to replace Dubas and Shanny in a hypothetical fire?

 

[Gallagbi]

Who are people suggesting to replace Dubas and Shanny in a hypothetical fire?

Rutherford seemed to be the favorite for GM replacement

 

[nuck]

No Babcock, no Andersen, no Gardiner, Reilly played well, so we had to go looking for a new scapegoat.

Thank goodness the coach never tried any adjustments to his top line so we can pin this one on Mitch.

What if Dubas specifically told Keefe to play the crap out of Marner and Matthews because that was his big beef with Babs? All this talk about Keefe being "his guy" and "on the same page". How do you fire a coach for doing what you said? That would be awkward. All three may be back after all.

 

[egd27]

Andersen was one of the reasons that we lost those three first round series. He wasn't good enough.

Lazy excuse.

Shut out twice and only two 5on5 goals in a 5 game series. Yea, the goalie was the problem FFS.

 

[Gallagbi]

Lazy excuse.

Shut out twice and only two 5on5 goals in a 5 game series. Yea, the goalie was the problem FFS.

Needed more scoring. Needed fewer weak ones to beat him.