Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[Cleetus]

Lazy excuse.

Shut out twice and only two 5on5 goals in a 5 game series. Yea, the goalie was the problem FFS.

did the leafs not get shut out in game 5 Against CBJ, and only mustered 1 goal in game 7 vs MTL.... hard to win with that run support

 

[hotpaws]

No Babcock, no Andersen, no Gardiner, Reilly played well, so we had to go looking for a new scapegoat.

Thank goodness the coach never tried any adjustments to his top line so we can pin this one on Mitch.

I remember Dubie's commenting on the world series where the manger pulled the pitcher even though he was pitching great because that's what they've done all year based on analytics saying it gives them the highest possible chance for success . Dubie was all in with the mgr while many others were saying you can't be that rigid and have to be flexible depending on the situation .

imo KD really has no idea how to evaluate what he sees and that he bases his decisions on what data gets spit out and that's why Keefe probably didn't make any adjustments since the data was saying to stay the course because our line was doing well based on the stats

 

[egd27]

Needed more scoring. Needed fewer weak ones to beat him.

.934 sv% 1.81 GAA
.936 sv% 1.84 GAA

Which goalie was outstanding and which lost us a series?

 

[Cpt Maple Leaf]

To answer the question, his social skills are off the charts so that's one thing. Also I believe he represents something, hard to exactly pin down, not just youth, more like the essence of modern urban male, that so many other hockey men don't represent.

 

[Gallagbi]

.934 sv% 1.81 GAA
.936 sv% 1.84 GAA

Which goalie was outstanding and which lost us a series?

I didn't think either were outstanding and both allowed costly stinkers in key games. One did it for under a third of the cost.

I also thought the Habs series generated more quality chances for both teams.

Adding on, I also expect Jack Campbell to get outplayed by Price. I don't have that same expectation of Freddie vs. a CBJ tandem

 

[Cleetus]

.934 sv% 1.81 GAA
.936 sv% 1.84 GAA

Which goalie was outstanding and which lost us a series?

you know what's even funnier is the leafs spend 40 million on fowards to put the puck in the net and they blame it all on the goalie

 

[sparxx87]

I didn't think either were outstanding and both allowed costly stinkers in key games. One did it for under a third of the cost.

I also thought the Habs series generated more quality chances for both teams.

I think the opposite. Korpisalo and Anderson had more difficult work than Price and Campbell. Leafs were pretty good defensively against the Habs, they just made life far too easy for the best goalie in the world at the other end.

 

[egd27]

imo KD really has no idea how to evaluate what he sees and that he bases his decisions on what data gets spit out and that's why Keefe probably didn't make any adjustments since the data was saying to stay the course because our line was doing well based on the stats

Good lord, you're probably right with this.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

So what you're saying if I'm reading between the lines here correctly , is that its very important to have a good GM, who knows how to structure his contracts and pay his players according to the goal of winning the Stanley Cup. Where management sets the payscale and not the players, and you're either a team player and you buy in or you're out.

Here in Toronto where everybody gets $11 mil, and then the GM says "that's the plan and I'm sticking to it", despite the obvious return on investment producing 1st round losses, and disappointment. This is the perfect example of what not to do if long-term success is the objective here. Inmates running the Asylum generally doesn't produce positive desired results, no matter how long you allow it to continue.

Hard to argue with you there, and in fact couldn't have said it better myself.

Thanks...I appreciate the compliment. I think you put it rather succinctly when describe his "That's the plan and I am sticking to it" fallacy that he is in. Only weak people never admit mistakes IMO. I have been in business for 30yrs off and on and I can tell you I never REALLY succeeded until I started listening more to other peoples advice and also admitting I made a bad call. It happens in life...admit it..move on.

My employees know my number 1 rule about mistakes: Admit you messed up....if you don't admit you messed up then how can you fix the problem and avoid it in the future?

Maybe MLSE needs to implement my rule.

 

[egd27]

did the leafs not get shut out in game 5 Against CBJ, and only mustered 1 goal in game 7 vs MTL.... hard to win with that run support

The Leafiest part is they were getting shut out in Game 4 as well until that one in a million 3 goals with the net empty miracle, only to come out and get shut out again in Game 5.

 

[Stonehands1990]

I remember Dubie's commenting on the world series where the manger pulled the pitcher even though he was pitching great because that's what they've done all year based on analytics saying it gives them the highest possible chance for success . Dubie was all in with the mgr while many others were saying you can't be that rigid and have to be flexible depending on the situation .

imo KD really has no idea how to evaluate what he sees and that he bases his decisions on what data gets spit out and that's why Keefe probably didn't make any adjustments since the data was saying to stay the course because our line was doing well based on the stats

This is 100% what I’m taking from it. I’ve had to watch 2 rounds of goalies making very routine saves but everyone saying we were “lethal” and shooters “went cold”

 

[rumman]

What if Dubas specifically told Keefe to play the crap out of Marner and Matthews because that was his big beef with Babs? All this talk about Keefe being "his guy" and "on the same page". How do you fire a coach for doing what you said? That would be awkward. All three may be back after all.

You can hardly see the strings........

 

[Trapper]

The Leafiest part is they were getting shut out in Game 4 as well until that one in a million 3 goals with the net empty miracle, only to come out and get shut out again in Game 5.

And for 58 minutes of game 7 against Montreal we were shutout until Nylander scored.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Lou did not sell the farm to overpay Barzal and voila. one game away from round 3. Somewhere we can only dream about.

The problem with liking anything that Lou did is that you have to like EVERYTHING he did. Because the Dubas fan club loves every single move that he makes...they expect someone that liked SOME of what Lou did, to like everything he did. I think he did a lot of good things and we can never know what he would have done after getting the boot against CBJ. I do know that Babs would probably still be coaching the team...that much is obvious.

As Lou used to say "It's an unfortunate situation"

 

[ACC1224]

The problem with liking anything that Lou did is that you have to like EVERYTHING he did. Because the Dubas fan club loves every single move that he makes...they expect someone that liked SOME of what Lou did, to like everything he did. I think he did a lot of good things and we can never know what he would have done after getting the boot against CBJ. I do know that Babs would probably still be coaching the team...that much is obvious.

As Lou used to say "It's an unfortunate situation"

It’s absolutely asinine that they use his current tenure in NY as a criticism of him.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Should have done this before Marner. Dubas should have challenged Nylander to go out and sign an offer sheet to set his price. Then depending upon the price the team could have matched or taken the compensation. The rest would have fallen in place or the process could have been repeated with Marner.

This is an old discussion but I'm bringing it up again. Dubas is supposed to be in a politely *adversarial position with regards to contract negotiation. He shouldn't be their friend or ally. Dubas' loyalty should be to the hockey organization not the individual players. His goal in negotiations should be to squeeze his opponents to the benefit of MLSE. Less for your star players, more for other talent. His friend-to-my-players strategy is shockingly naive and was always doomed to failure. It doesn't require malice on the part of the players themselves to be an untenable situation especially considering that they employ agents to maximize their compensation. And the most amazing thing that we'll see if Dubas lasts farther into the future, his capitulation won't be rewarded in the future by these players, they will grow resent him regardless.

edit: changed "hostile" to "adversarial" (word escaped me)

Good points. I will add that I see being a GM a bit like being a parent. We all know a set of parents that don't like 'Rules' and respects their childrens rights to be themselves etc. If you are like me and are firm but balanced...your kids turn out great because they have respect for you. When you allow your child to raise himself or run the show so to speak...you are asking for problems later. I have seen it..I am sure many of you have as well.

The other issue for us is that we don't just have 1 really good player like most teams do. When you over pay one of them..what are the others going to expect from you?

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

It’s absolutely asinine that they use his current tenure in NY as a criticism of him.

Considering he walked into a literal tire fire and has them doing what they are doing is straight up insane. I honestly thought he took the job just to prove he isn't senile...never mind hitting home run after home run. He is doing a super job down there...better than he did up here IMO. Could it be that Shanny was mucking with him a bit to accelerate the rebuild after our first taste of playoffs? maybe... but he is doing a super job down there in NY.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

our different experiences with the same person made me chuckle? Maybe it’s because I get into with all the worst ones? It’s clouded my judgment.

re; Campbell I definitely think he had a solid year but hearing from some goalie coaches - they have some real concerns about his game that a team that does it’s homework can attack.

+ soft goals at bad time + injury.

I like Campbell and hope he proves me wrong, I just don’t feel very good about him being their best option.. especially in the playoffs.

I couldn't in good conscience be a critic of Fred and his softy goals and let the game 7 softy by Soupy go without acknowledgement. I like him...I just wonder if he has the mental toughness that it takes to play in this market. Fred didn't have it IMO. He would just keep repeating how great a goalie he was after screwing us time and again over the years.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

This is why the contact discussions always go to shit on here. Some people make the case for why their player should make x dollars without realizing that they’re supposed to be on the teams side, making a case why they should pay less.

Dubas didn’t get this. He’d never negotiated a contract before.

He was a player agent first. He forgot which hat he was wearing when he did the deals is my guess. A few player agent spoke about how they like dealing with him because he is fair...when agents like you...it's a problem.

 

[justashadowof]

you know what's even funnier is the leafs spend 40 million on fowards to put the puck in the net and they blame it all on the goalie

The goalie who makes 2% of the team's cap hit, no less.

 

[justashadowof]

The Leafiest part is they were getting shut out in Game 4 as well until that one in a million 3 goals with the net empty miracle, only to come out and get shut out again in Game 5.

What is Leafier? The above or losing your captain in the 1st period of the 1st game to a horrific injury then forge a commanding 3-1 series lead against a sub .500 opponent then proceed to methodically blow the series with 2 home games.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Do you think those stats are elevated with his linemates? Do you think a little more talent or scoring touch, maybe a little better shot without giving up the tenacity might yield a little better results.

I agree, they aren’t winning because of their goalie, but they can’t lose because of him, either. Not saying that’s what happened, but it’s almost inevitable from 4-5 bad goals in 7 games. 3 in the final 3 games with a chance to close the series.

I can pretty safely bet that if Hyman signs elsewhere and doesn't get put on a line with 2 really good players...he is not going to crack 20G next year. The reason he has so much room to skate around the zone endlessly is because the D is keying in on the other 2 guys. If he is not put in that situation on his new team...I doubt he does nearly as well.

 

[egd27]

What is Leafier? The above or losing your captain in the 1st period of the 1st game to a horrific injury then forge a commanding 3-1 series lead against a sub .500 opponent then proceed to methodically blow the series with 2 home games.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I remember Dubie's commenting on the world series where the manger pulled the pitcher even though he was pitching great because that's what they've done all year based on analytics saying it gives them the highest possible chance for success . Dubie was all in with the mgr while many others were saying you can't be that rigid and have to be flexible depending on the situation .

imo KD really has no idea how to evaluate what he sees and that he bases his decisions on what data gets spit out and that's why Keefe probably didn't make any adjustments since the data was saying to stay the course because our line was doing well based on the stats

Until they can actually quantify what players can do outside of the common metrics...you will always be missing something. Kind of like Hyman right now...he doesn't score a ton...he doesn't hit a ton..but there is something about his effort and tenacity that works. Is there a stat for xTF (expected tenacity For) to quantify him? I don't think so...so when you for example play Engval over another guy becuase his xGF is better...are you taking into account the other things the other player might be doing (xTF)? According to Dubas Engval and Mikeyhev are doing very well because they are 'expected' to score with xGF...the reality is something else.

 

[Garthinater]

ya they love him so much that Tavares took less money to sign here. Those agents love taking less so they get less. It’s like player agent 101

Simmonds took less

Thornton took less

spezza took less

all these player agents love Dubas that they sign here for less. Boy he’s a sucker


Ironically the only bad contract is Marners, but he had to be signed because he’s a Ontario boy and we didn’t have enough of them. Remember?

Do you actually belive this?