Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[Ciao]

too bad you left out that Sakic took over the 2nd last place team in the league which needed to be completely rebuilt unlike Dubas who walked into a team that had just came off a franchise record

different circumstances mean GM's have different expectations and time frames to accomplish them

your boy Dubie's problem is the team keeps regressing every season he's been GM and if doesn't get kicked to the curb this off season he will the next if the team doesn't improve

I don't think the Leafs regressed at all this season over any previous season under Lou.

They had a better winning percentage in the regular season, finished higher in the standings, and did just as well in the playoffs as any previous year. They tightened their defence and took their playoff opponent to an elimination game three times -- although as before they failed to clinch.

Plus, Matthews won the Rocket -- the first major individual award for a Leafs' player in quite a while -- and Marner finished top-five in scoring.

I think all of those are promising signs.

In which way would you think they regressed?

 

[hotpaws]

I don't think the Leafs regressed at all this season over any previous season under Lou.

They had a better winning percentage in the regular season, finished higher in the standings, and did just as well in the playoffs as any previous year. They tightened their defence and took their playoff opponent to an elimination game three times -- although as before they failed to clinch.

Plus, Matthews won the Rocket -- the first major individual award for a Leafs' player in quite a while -- and Marner finished top-five in scoring.

I think all of those are promising signs.

In which way would you think they regressed?

i guess if overlook small details like how our division was crap and we lost to 2 weak to bad teams in Col and Mon compared to quality teams like Boston and Washington then you'd be right we haven't regressed , lol ,

at the end of day it comes down to results and one more poor result and Dubas will be kicked to curb to join Burke who had an even bigger following defending him on this board

 

[Stephen]

? ? ? What does any of that have to do with comparing Sakic to Dubas?

O'Reilly and Duchene were both unhappy in Colorado and asked to be traded. Hardly a sign of great management.

At the time of his trade, Barrie wasn't a cornerstone-- he was a spare part. A powerplay specialist with weak defensive skills.

No problem with those trades, but I don't know how they differentiate Sakic from Dubas.

Make moves to get better even if it’s upsetting some preconceived notion of what you thought your core is supposed to look like.

 

[Ciao]

Make moves to get better even if it’s upsetting some preconceived notion of what you thought your core is supposed to look like.

Sakic responded to trade demands and moved a spare part. I don't think he was just trying to shake up his core.

Again, I have no problem with those trades but I dont think they're a point of comparison for the Leafs.

 

[Ciao]

i guess if overlook small details like how our division was crap and we lost to 2 weak to bad teams in Col and Mon compared to quality teams like Boston and Washington then you'd be right we haven't regressed , lol ,

at the end of day it comes down to results and one more poor result and Dubas will be kicked to curb to join Burke who had an even bigger following defending him on this board

Well, coming back to results, my point is that Sakic hasn't had any results either and is now down 3-2 in the second round. If the Avalanche don't win their next two games, they will still have never left the second round under Joe Sakic, even though they are a great team, he is an excellent GM and he doesn't deserve to be fired.

BTW, I dont buy your argument that Sakic ingerited a mess. In the last season before Sakic took over as GM they finished first in their division. The next three years -- his first three as GM -- they missed the playoffs three years in a row before they got back in and lost another two seasons in the first round. Now they're at the stage of winning the first round and losing in the second round for the next few years, unless they win this series -- which they still might.

None of this is a knock on Sakic. Its just to show that it takes time to build a winner, and constantly churning coaches and managers doesn't usually help.

 

[sparxx87]

I've been watching the Leafs more than 40 years, and I'm tired of seeing them chase other teams' over-the-hill cast-offs -- be that players, coaches or managers.

Cliff Fletcher, Brian Burke, Lou Lamoriello all had success elsewhere but not in Toronto. I would much rather have people on the rise instead of yesterday's men chasing past glories.

Fans that have seen the same thing for 40 years, but with far less talent, burying their head in the sand and making completely unsubstantiated comments about ‘best GM under 40’ despite the clear lack of fundamental understanding in so many of his moves.

Sympathetic to most the fanbase but support from fans with this level of delusion is why it’ll never change.

So unfortunate. Sign up for failure, every September. I know you’re in!

 

[sparxx87]

I wonder where Sakic is if he inherited a (franchise record) 105 point team with prime aged top 10 goalie and top 15 d, as well as ELC’s of Matthews/Marner/Nylander?

 

[ottomaddox]

I don't think the Leafs regressed at all this season over any previous season under Lou.

They had a better winning percentage in the regular season, finished higher in the standings, and did just as well in the playoffs as any previous year. They tightened their defence and took their playoff opponent to an elimination game three times -- although as before they failed to clinch.

Plus, Matthews won the Rocket -- the first major individual award for a Leafs' player in quite a while -- and Marner finished top-five in scoring.

I think all of those are promising signs.

In which way would you think they regressed?

Oh oh oh. I'll answer that!

In a 7 game series with MTL their compete regressed, the coaching tactics regressed, but the "could care less now" improved greatly. The play from some of the veteran players regressed.

Also the power play was rock bottom after it started ok in the regular season. The power play did not improve at all. They might as well have passed on every opportunity to have a power play.

Do I need to go on and list more things?

 

[sparxx87]

Oh oh oh. I'll answer that!

In a 7 game series with MTL their compete regressed, the coaching tactics regressed, but the "could care less now" improved greatly. The play from some of the veteran players regressed.

Also the power play was rock bottom after it started ok in the regular season. The power play did not improve at all. They might as well have passed on every opportunity to have a power play.

Do I need to go on and list more things?

Just look at the depth he decimated. They had arguably the deepest 12 man forward group... now, 4 top players and a bunch of plugs like Kerfoot, Engvall and Galchenyuk from the clearance rack.

Only 2 playable centres on the entire roster means they don’t even have the basic infrastructure.

Hard to believe some still don’t see it.

 

[ottomaddox]

Just look at the depth he decimated. They had arguably the deepest 12 man forward group... now, 4 top players and a bunch of plugs like Kerfoot, Engvall and Galchenyuk from the clearance rack.

Only 2 playable centres on the entire roster means they don’t even have the basic infrastructure.

Hard to believe some still don’t see it.

Everything leads back to their salary structure. You'll never compete in the playoffs when you have half of the money tied up in 4 players.

 

[justashadowof]

Just as a team that hasn't made the playoffs in the past 5 seasons isn't comparable this Leafs' team, this Leafs' team is not comparable to the Avalanche who have actually won playoff series for 3 straight seasons.

 

[sparxx87]

Everything leads back to their salary structure. You'll never compete in the playoffs when you have half of the money tied up in 4 players.

It’s too bad Dubas didn’t take economics. He doesn’t understand pro hockey but maybe this way he wouldn’t have handcuffed the organization with foolish spending.

Keep saying it: worst hire in the history of the franchise.

 

[ShaneFalco]

If they are unwilling to move on from part of this core, they both need to go. But I'd start with Dubas and then clear out the coaching staff. That PP alone should cost someone their job

 

[4thline]

I wonder where Sakic is if he inherited a (franchise record) 105 point team with prime aged top 10 goalie and top 15 d, as well as ELC’s of Matthews/Marner/Nylander?

Well, he had Varlamov entering his prime + Erik Johnson and Barrie on D, ELC's of Gabriel Landeskog and Nathan MacKinnon, plus prime age Duchene/ROR and slightly older Stastny.

 

[sparxx87]

Well, he had Varlamov entering his prime + Erik Johnson and Barrie on D, ELC's of Gabriel Landeskog and Nathan MacKinnon, plus prime age Duchene/ROR and slightly older Stastny.

He started in what, 14-15? He was in the office but they had Sherman in the chair for his first few years.

Varlamov couldn’t stay healthy then beat the shit out of his girlfriend. I don’t think he was ever seen as a long term building block.

Neither Barrie nor Johnson are even close to Morgan Rielly. (I agree Johnson does some things better, but Rielly does more things that can’t be taught and are harder to acquire.)

O’Reilly and Duchene didn’t want to be there. I don’t know why so it’s tough to speak on.

I honestly don’t see the same type of promise aside from MacKinnon and Landeskog as somewhat of a parallel to Matthews and Marner.

 

[hotpaws]

Well, coming back to results, my point is that Sakic hasn't had any results either and is now down 3-2 in the second round. If the Avalanche don't win their next two games, they will still have never left the second round under Joe Sakic, even though they are a great team, he is an excellent GM and he doesn't deserve to be fired.

BTW, I dont buy your argument that Sakic ingerited a mess. In the last season before Sakic took over as GM they finished first in their division. The next three years -- his first three as GM -- they missed the playoffs three years in a row before they got back in and lost another two seasons in the first round. Now they're at the stage of winning the first round and losing in the second round for the next few years, unless they win this series -- which they still might.

None of this is a knock on Sakic. Its just to show that it takes time to build a winner, and constantly churning coaches and managers doesn't usually help.

Sakic took over running the team following the 2012-13 season , this is where there finished the 5 years before he took over

2012-13 - 29th
2011-12 - 20th
2010-11 - 29th
2009-10 - 12th
2008-09 - 28th

Dubas took over a team on the upswing that had just come off a team record 105pt season , he walked into a completely situation so all your spinning isn't going to save his job if the team performs poorly one more time .

and i still have no idea why some people are so f***ing attached to who's running the team that they don't give a damn how poorly they perform , first it was Burke and his legion of rabid supporters and now it's Dubie and his boys

 

[egd27]

You did? The vast majority of your posts shit on the Leafs.

See if you can find more than one or two posts where I "shit" on the Toronto Maple Leaf players. I don't think much of the GM but was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt with his off season efforts, and I don't think much of the coach after another dismal performance in preparing the team for the playoffs.

So much like you didn't care for Lou and Babcock and were very vocal about it, I don't care for Kyle and Keefe.

I suppose where we differ is that I don't join in on the bashing of Andersen, Reilly, Marner and some of the other Maple Leaf players along with you.

 

[Bomber0104]

Sakic took over running the team following the 2012-13 season , this is where there finished the 5 years before he took over

2012-13 - 29th
2011-12 - 20th
2010-11 - 29th
2009-10 - 12th
2008-09 - 28th

Dubas took over a team on the upswing that had just come off a team record 105pt season , he walked into a completely situation so all your spinning isn't going to save his job if the team performs poorly one more time .

and i still have no idea why some people are so f***ing attached to who's running the team that they damn give a damn how poorly they perform , first it was Burke and his legion of rabid supporters and now it's Dubie and his boys

Burke's cult following was waaaaaaay worse on here.

They had proper levels of pugnacity, testosterone, and belligerence after all

 

[egd27]

I've been watching the Leafs more than 40 years, and I'm tired of seeing them chase other teams' over-the-hill cast-offs -- be that players, coaches or managers.

Cliff Fletcher, Brian Burke, Lou Lamoriello all had success elsewhere but not in Toronto. I would much rather have people on the rise instead of yesterday's men chasing past glories.

You didn't like Fletcher taking the team to the Final 4?
Lamoriello turning them into a 100 point playoff team after one PO appearance in a dozen years.
You didn't like Pat Burns or Pat Quinn's coaching?

Yea we did so much better with up and comers like JFJ.

 

[justashadowof]

Everything leads back to their salary structure. You'll never compete in the playoffs when you have half of the money tied up in 4 players.

I'm betting he doubles down on this if he's allowed to continue. He'll conclude that the team lacked the right kind of scoring depth when it was really needed in the 1st round of playoffs. The natural action after that is to add another expensive forward as the solution, at least for the 2021-22 season where cap money has been freed from the goaltending bucket. Anything other than recognizing that this elusive scoring depth is sunk deeply in each $11M forward. In that $11M forward plus 2 of his $1M aav minions exists a couple of $5M aav forwards and another $3M forward. Voila!

 

[hotpaws]

Burke's cult following was waaaaaaay worse on here.

They had proper levels of pugnacity, testosterone, and belligerence after all

so true , lol

but they were also more creative and entertaining

 

[4thline]

Which lends credence to your earlier point that part of this is completely out of their control. You draft an elite talent at the top but you don’t get to choose his interests, motivation or preferred living.

Seems like they got pretty unlucky in that regard. Same talent with Crosby or Toews’ attitude and team first approach, we likely aren’t having this conversation.

This got me thinking last night while putting the boy to sleep, butterfly effect and all that, and trying to find the one thing that sets this all sideways. I came down do the surprise win of the Babcock sweepstakes.

H1- Matthews isn't an inherently bad or selfish person. I won't begrudge any player/person the willingness to use the (above board) leverage available to them. The problem was that he was unnecessarily pissed off by a coach that got increasingly wrapped up in his own brand.

H2- Marner was always going to end up pissy and demanding to be treated as Matthews' equal

H3- Shanny split from Lou over disagreement as to how to handle a pissed off M&M moving forward. Lou wanted standard "you shall conform, no one is irreplaceable", Shanny thought they're the future of the franchise and wanted long term reconciliation.

H4- Babs ego + disproportionate influence (for a HC) as a board hire unbalanced management working relationships.


If we lost on Babs:

We end up with a Boucher, someone that develops Matthews without going out of they way to piss him off. With one less voice demanding to stand pat and draft at 4 ( Hunter wanting Marner, Babs Hanifin) Dubas' plan to trade back sways Shanny. We trade back and end up with one of Rantanen/Barzal/Connor/Werenski.

End result: Matthews isn't throwing his weight around trying to get every dollar in order to play unhappily under Babcock. Our 2nd big piece isn't out for blood with small man syndrome trying to get the same as Matthews. We have two picks in that 24-34 range because we'd already have CBJ 34 from the tradeback from 4-8, maybe we have a Carlo/Aho in addition to Dermott. Without the prospect of contentious negotiations with M&M Shanny has no reason to move on from Lou. Both take decent contracts. Without the simmering conflict between Babs and Dubas Kyle and Lou have a better relationship, and draw upon both of their strengths.

We win a cup. I wake up having fallen asleep with my son.

 

[rumman]

I'm betting he doubles down on this if he's allowed to continue. He'll conclude that the team lacked the right kind of scoring depth when it was really needed in the 1st round of playoffs. The natural action after that is to add another expensive forward as the solution, at least for the 2021-22 season where cap money has been freed from the goaltending bucket. Anything other than recognizing that this elusive scoring depth is sunk deeply in each $11M forward. In that $11M forward plus 2 of his $1M aav minions exists a couple of $5M aav forwards and another $3M forward. Voila!

The real question is when the Leafs choke once again next spring will THAT be enough to invoke change?

 

[4thline]

He started in what, 14-15? He was in the office but they had Sherman in the chair for his first few years.

Varlamov couldn’t stay healthy then beat the shit out of his girlfriend. I don’t think he was ever seen as a long term building block.

Neither Barrie nor Johnson are even close to Morgan Rielly. (I agree Johnson does some things better, but Rielly does more things that can’t be taught and are harder to acquire.)

O’Reilly and Duchene didn’t want to be there. I don’t know why so it’s tough to speak on.

I honestly don’t see the same type of promise aside from MacKinnon and Landeskog as somewhat of a parallel to Matthews and Marner.

Sherman was a puppet/advisor in 13-14 (their big season) with Sakic having final say but working with Roy as de-facto co gm's.


Duchene and ROR didn't want out *yet*
Neither EJ nor Barrie are Rielly, but still a strong 1-2 punch
Sakic himself committed to Varlamov *after* the charges were laid with a 5 year 6m deal signed in late 2014.

It was a similarly excellent situation. 1st season was a 112 point year with a team brimming with talent, then it exploded

 

[justashadowof]

The real question is when the Leafs choke once again next spring will THAT be enough to invoke change?

I don't even know. It's obvious right now that a major re-structuring is needed whether in the front office or the makeup of the team to avoid the coming decline. We've seen the GM double and triple down when pressed on this obvious folly with the cap distribution yet he has stated rather clearly that he's willing to nuke his entire reputation and die on this hill. It turns out that he's not so open-minded and numbers driven about recognizing revealed outcomes after all. Apparently being proven right, i.e. being the smartest guy in the room, has always been his highest objective, not the health and well being of the hockey franchise.