Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[WTFMAN99]

Matthews was always going to come in between Eichel and McDavid....just not for 5 years compared to 8.

Marner had it easy, more points than the 2 $11m guys, and Nylander paved the way with his holdout so Kid Kyle was deathly afraid of that happening again. "Just a little less than Auston please and thank you"

I always thought the contract would be between the 2 as well, the 5 years blew my mind.

 

[hotpaws]

Picked anywhere was slight hyperbole. But if he got to July 1 and had an agent broadcast a number like 10.5 x 4 or 12.5 x 7 he would have had multiple offers to choose from.

the Leafs would have matched and both those deals are better than the one Dubie gave him

 

[justashadowof]

There’s an even funnier one of him bent over with clenched fists like he just scored the winning goal.

This was another that was on my list of ‘wtf’ moments.

I remember vividly his reaction the night Nick Petan scored his one and only goal as a Leaf. I think this is it:

 

[sparxx87]

the Leafs would have matched and both those deals are better than the one Dubie gave him

4 years takes him straight to UFA. That’s what I’d be trying to avoid. Try for 3 but likely settle on 8 in the mid 11 million range. I’m working up from Eichel but not approaching McDavid.

 

[sparxx87]

I remember vividly his reaction the night Nick Petan scored his one and only goal as a Leaf. I think this is it:

That trade from a philosophical and situational perspective made zero sense. Don’t even get my started because it was too minor to spend any time on.


...but it was on the list.

 

[Aus34Matt]

Matthews was always going to come in between Eichel and McDavid....just not for 5 years compared to 8.

Marner had it easy, more points than the 2 $11m guys, and Nylander paved the way with his holdout so Kid Kyle was deathly afraid of that happening again. "Just a little less than Auston please and thank you"

Posted this in another thread.

I highly doubt that's how things would've gone down had Lou Lam been in the driver seat at the time.

Frickin' rookie wonder boy ruined everything.

NHL Agent Poll: Maple Leafs’ Kyle Dubas Deemed Most Generous GM (forbes.com)

 

[justashadowof]

I think I'm reading from even the most critical that the biggest mistake was signing Tavares because the other contracts are being explained away by all of us one way or another.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That's a very specific mandate for a new GM, I think you'd want them to have autonomy to make their own choice on the two.

Sure that's fair. I guess I just don't see any other way forward but moving one of the big three. It can't be Tavares and I don't see hiring anyone who would keep Marner over Matthews so that leaves Marner. I guess I could be missing something but my thinking in interviewing a new GM would be to ask what his plan would be and if it's anything other than trading Marner, I'll listen but I think it would hard to convince me of another path. But yeah I wouldn't go in saying this is what you have to do, I'd ask what they would do and hire someone who's plan makes sense to me as opposed to dictating to them.

I agree, but we've been hearing about the "back breaking" goals for 4-5 years now. I guess the fact they battled back in two of the games before choking in OT was a good sign?

Maybe it a sign that one soft goal doesn't need to mean game over, even for the Leafs.

As a teammate on the bench, you grit your teeth and go get it back for him. He bails you out, now it’s our turn.

Just don’t see that ‘dig in’ from them.

As the above post pointed out, they have battled back in the past. I guess it just doesn't happen enough, almost shut out for two game 7's in a row is pretty pathetic, especially considering the lack of fight shown in those games.

 

[myleafs]

Dubas has done some good things but it all hinges on his $40M commitment to 4 forwards and it's become painfully obvious that was a mistake.

Its not even about 4 players getting 50% of the cap though not optimal imo but its the kind of players that are taking up that amount. If you have a prime Doughty and Kopitar with Matthews and Tavares or Hedman, Kucherov or I would be good with that.

 

[egd27]

Stupid comment. Keefe has one of the best records of Leafs coaches when you look the tenure from start of the career. He isn't Trotz but he is lot younger and up & coming. If he wasn't our coach, but some other NHL team with same outcome, any of you wouldn't write him off.

He just coached a 56 game season without having to face a Top 10 NHL team, had the worst PP I can recall with the Rocket Winner, a Top 5 point producer, 3 future HOF centres, and a former World Championship MVP at his disposal, and couldn't come up with a game plan to counter the defensive strategy of an 86 point pace team.

I'd prefer if he was up and going.

 

[sparxx87]

Sure that's fair. I guess I just don't see any other way forward but moving one of the big three. It can't be Tavares and I don't see hiring anyone who would keep Marner over Matthews so that leaves Marner. I guess I could be missing something but my thinking in interviewing a new GM would be to ask what his plan would be and if it's anything other than trading Marner, I'll listen but I think it would hard to convince me of another path. But yeah I wouldn't go in saying this is what you have to do, I'd ask what they would do and hire someone who's plan makes sense to me as opposed to dictating to them.



Maybe it a sign that one soft goal doesn't need to mean game over, even for the Leafs.



As the above post pointed out, they have battled back in the past. I guess it just doesn't happen enough, almost shut out for two game 7's in a row is pretty pathetic, especially considering the lack of fight shown in those games.

Game 4 vs CBJ looked like it could be a coming-of-age moment where it finally clicked how good they can be when they play with urgency...

... but nope. They laid an egg the next game.

 

[hotpaws]

4 years takes him straight to UFA. That’s what I’d be trying to avoid. Try for 3 but likely settle on 8 in the mid 11 million range. I’m working up from Eichel but not approaching McDavid.

yup but the nmc in the 5th year gives him full control and at least with a 4 yr term we'd know if we'd be able to re sign him and then be able to make a decision on how to proceed

 

[Garthinater]

Apparently not across the NHL because no other GM paid their RFA stars anything close to what Dubas capitulated to with both Matthews and Marner.



Marner had just put up a higher point total than any Leaf in over 20 years and a higher total than Tavares had done in his career. I'm sure where Marner's demands were so out of whack once Dubas began paying out.

After dubas over payed matthews and marner in 2019, the dubas fan boys told us that Kyle was just ahead of the curve and all the other gms would be doing the same.

Its been 2 years and not a single gm has given an rfa contract even close to what dubas did with 34 and 16.

Career high at time of signing:
94 points in 82 for marner
73 points in 68 games for matthews

Add on that marner had been our best playoff performer up to that point and I can understand why mitch was asking for matthews money.

 

[sparxx87]

yup but the nmc in the 5th year gives him full control and at least with a 4 yr term we'd know if we'd be able to re sign him and then be able to make a decision on how to proceed with him

Oh I don’t like the current deal, but the one I’d be looking to avoid most is a 4 year term. That’s the only one that I don’t want.

 

[justashadowof]

That trade from a philosophical and situational perspective made zero sense. Don’t even get my started because it was too minor to spend any time on.


...but it was on the list.

Yes it was super minor but it was an odd to toss away center depth going into the playoffs.

 

[Antropovsky]

That trade from a philosophical and situational perspective made zero sense. Don’t even get my started because it was too minor to spend any time on.


...but it was on the list.

Minor to you....but I bet Babs was steaming mad. Useful 4th liner and pker going into playoffs traded for a ahl scoring winger who was unpolished defensively.

 

[sparxx87]

Yes it was super minor but it was an odd to toss away center depth going into the playoffs.

That was my only point. Why are they trading a versatile depth C who can play all 3 fwd positions for a minor league winger?

This is a common move a team headed for the playoffs would make, but in reverse. Another wtf?

 

[sparxx87]

Minor to you....but I bet Babs was steaming mad. Useful 4th liner and pker going into playoffs traded for a ahl scoring winger who was unpolished defensively.

I can just imagine his reaction: “are you ****in serious?”

 

[deprw]

Heavily weighted with the new coach honeymoon and a watered down North division.

Watching him get dragged into deep water and drowned by Dominique Ducharme should be red flags for all.

Well you can't get Barry Trotz at the moment from Islanders, even if you want to. You can't get any accomplished coach from the league that haven't recently failured, even if you want. I don't see John Tortorella as an option to this team. You can go with up and comer, just like Sheldon Keefe. That has some sort of track record from university or from the AHL. Would you like to start some sort of revolving door project with trial by fire? One failure -> out. I wouldn't give up on Sheldon Keefe. Seems like he has tools to learn from his mistakes and knows this organization in and out. We don't have better option at the moment.

Paul Maurice was outcoached by Ducharme in four games. It doesn't mean that we didn't fail. We did big time, but that doesn't mean that we should overreact or burn this team down.

We should evaluate, learn from the mistakes and build this up stronger. If we trade Mitch Marner, or fire Sheldon Keefe, we should do it as calculated decision without feelings toward it. As hockey decision. Now people are raging and wanting revenge. You are concerned that Auston Matthews leaves as UFA. Act like an ass towards our players and organization, maybe he will.

I'm not quitting on this team or organization, but I'm starting to quit on it's fans. This "conversation" here is going rounds around canning Shanny/Dubas/Keefe and that we don't have physicality. Yeah, we failed in the playoffs, but we don't have quick fixes and if we want to progress in anyway we need time. You can't just buy tkachuks and physicality when you want to. You can't trade for cliffords of this league if another team isn't selling.

Worst thing to happen to us, is some business mind getting an idea, that we can our hockey people and run this as business operation. PPP and Richard Peddie way. Shanahan has done so many good things to this organization, that I rather trust him than our brain trust handing the keys to some wild card at the moment.

I may change my opinion after next year, but sad truth is that there is no quick fix hockey people out there that can help us right now. Even you groom them by yourself or you wait for that Trotz to come available. We had our moment with Babcock, treated him as messiah and he became an ass.

 

[DarkKnight]

Posted this in another thread.

I highly doubt that's how things would've gone down had Lou Lam been in the driver seat at the time.

Frickin' rookie wonder boy ruined everything.

NHL Agent Poll: Maple Leafs’ Kyle Dubas Deemed Most Generous GM (forbes.com)

The funniest part, they posit is it good or bad that player AGENTS like Dubas. I mean, it says it all.

It’s not his fault the cap stagnated but man we’re screwed now and it’s his watch.

 

[deprw]

He just coached a 56 game season without having to face a Top 10 NHL team, had the worst PP I can recall with the Rocket Winner, a Top 5 point producer, a 3 future HOF centres, and a former World Champion at his disposal, and couldn't come up with a game plan to counter the defensive strategy of an 86 point pace team.

I'd prefer if he was up and going.

Who would you hire?

 

[sparxx87]

Who would you hire?

Gerard Gallant should be a strong candidate.

 

[Captain Crunch]

I think I'm reading from even the most critical that the biggest mistake was signing Tavares because the other contracts are being explained away by all of us one way or another.

I’ve said this all along. We weren’t ready for that. That basically said to hell with the rebuild, we’re ready now to compete for the Cup. AND, when Dubie boy signed the others to those contracts (hello, Mitch Marner!), it ruined our ability to balance out the roster.

 

[sparxx87]

Well you can't get Barry Trotz at the moment from Islanders, even if you want to. You can't get any accomplished coach from the league that haven't recently failured, even if you want. I don't see John Tortorella as an option to this team. You can go with up and comer, just like Sheldon Keefe. That has some sort of track record from university or from the AHL. Would you like to start some sort of revolving door project with trial by fire? One failure -> out. I wouldn't give up on Sheldon Keefe. Seems like he has tools to learn from his mistakes and knows this organization in and out. We don't have better option at the moment.

Paul Maurice was outcoached by Ducharme in four games. It doesn't mean that we didn't fail. We did big time, but that doesn't mean that we should overreact or burn this team down.

We should evaluate, learn from the mistakes and build this up stronger. If we trade Mitch Marner, or fire Sheldon Keefe, we should do it as calculated decision without feelings toward it. As hockey decision. Now people are raging and wanting revenge. You are concerned that Auston Matthews leaves as UFA. Act like an ass towards our players and organization, maybe he will.

I'm not quitting on this team or organization, but I'm starting to quit on it's fans. This "conversation" here is going rounds around canning Shanny/Dubas/Keefe and that we don't have physicality. Yeah, we failed in the playoffs, but we don't have quick fixes and if we want to progress in anyway we need time. You can't just buy tkachuks and physicality when you want to. You can't trade for cliffords of this league if another team isn't selling.

Worst thing to happen to us, is some business mind getting an idea, that we can our hockey people and run this as business operation. PPP and Richard Peddie way. Shanahan has done so many good things to this organization, that I rather trust him than our brain trust handing the keys to some wild card at the moment.

I may change my opinion after next year, but sad truth is that there is no quick fix hockey people out there that can help us right now. Even you groom them by yourself or you wait for that Trotz to come available. We had our moment with Babcock, treated him as messiah and he became an ass.

My faith in Shanahan took a turn when me moved on from a HOF’er and hired a stick boy who didn’t make it out of minor hockey.

It’s been almost all down hill ever since.

 

[deprw]

Gerard Gallant should be a strong candidate.

Interesting choice. Canada played terrible hockey in WHC without any game system, but they had good PP. Would help us, if we'd have good special teams.