Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[justashadowof]

I was driving when I heard Courtnall for Kordic. I call it road rage.

I've felt deep existential angst in my gut regarding a Leafs' trade announcement 3 times that I can recall:
1. Courtnall for Kordic
2. 1991 1st for Tom Kurvers (I had already been fantasizing that the Leafs in the 1991 was a real possibility)
3. The 2 unprotected 1sts for Phil Kessel.

 

[Gallagbi]

I’m not blaming Hyman, and I agree... I just think more talent around them.

I think selling Hyman as 25+ goals is a little ambitious.

I mean he's at 24, 34 and 29 goal paces over the last 3 years with a 28 goal pace in total.

And stop focusing on numbers. Go watch the Canes playoff run where he was almost unbeatable. Do you want a guy that can put up better numbers over a stretch, or a guy who can raise his game when most important?

I want to win. I've seen it with fantastic goaltending from expected sources like Patrick Roy and Brodeur. I've seen it with unexpected goaltending heros like Tim Thomas who built a career from nothing with highly questionable style and fundamentals. I've watched teams win ignoring goaltending and I've watched teams win focusing on goaltending. The point is we're not a team building around our goalie.

 

[hotpaws]

I've felt deep existential angst in my gut regarding a Leafs' trade announcement 3 times that I can recall:
1. Courtnall for Kordic
2. 1991 1st for Tom Kurvers (I had already been fantasizing that the Leafs in the 1991 was a real possibility)
3. The 2 unprotected 1sts for Phil Kessel.

you forgot Rask for Raycroft

 

[sparxx87]

I mean he's at 24, 34 and 29 goal paces over the last 3 years with a 28 goal pace in total.


I want to win. I've seen it with fantastic goaltending from expected sources like Patrick Roy and Brodeur. I've seen it with unexpected goaltending heros like Tim Thomas who built a career from nothing with highly questionable style and fundamentals. I've watched teams win ignoring goaltending and I've watched teams win focusing on goaltending. The point is we're not a team building around our goalie.

Do you think those stats are elevated with his linemates? Do you think a little more talent or scoring touch, maybe a little better shot without giving up the tenacity might yield a little better results.

I agree, they aren’t winning because of their goalie, but they can’t lose because of him, either. Not saying that’s what happened, but it’s almost inevitable from 4-5 bad goals in 7 games. 3 in the final 3 games with a chance to close the series.

 

[justashadowof]

Signals had nothing to do with it, leverage isn't transitive.

Apparently not across the NHL because no other GM paid their RFA stars anything close to what Dubas capitulated to with both Matthews and Marner.

Each player was worth a different amount, with a different amount of leverage. The only result that was way out of line was Marner's.

Marner had just put up a higher point total than any Leaf in over 20 years and a higher total than Tavares had done in his career. I'm sure where Marner's demands were so out of whack once Dubas began paying out.

 

[myleafs]

Both were mismanagement of roster imo, but Leaf nation wanted the kids to be ridden hard, which Keefe did all season long, no gas left for the playoffs. Bab’s was wise enough to conserve fuel for the post season.

Gotchya...While I agree somewhat ,what babs didnt do with a well rested M and M was play them when he should have. Throwing Marleau out in the dying minutes and saying well it was his turn was just crazy talk. If Babs was keeping the minutes down to keep them fresh during the season and then used them properly in the playoffs then great, but he didnt. Keefe just took the play them til they drop approach and that was also not a good move. Not sure why some coaches don't see what is so obvious to everybody else.

 

[4thline]

Apparently not across the NHL because no other GM paid their RFA stars anything close to what Dubas capitulated to with both Matthews and Marner.

Marner had just put up a higher point total than any Leaf in over 20 years and a higher total than Tavares had done in his career. I'm sure where Marner's demands were so out of whack once Dubas began paying out.

No one else had a seriously disgruntled Auston Matthews level player on the other side of the table.

 

[Gary Nylund]

To be clear, Campbell is a good goalie. He’s an athlete, he battles, and most importantly he gets in front of it... but some fundamentals, particularly his movement from certain angles is apparently glaring...

... and everyone says too hard on himself. Need to be able to put the bad ones behind you and reset. Questions about his mental approach, even though it’s so likeable in interviews. Need to be a little big arrogant to be good. He’s the farthest thing from it.

I was worried about his mental makeup but he's played well enough for long enough that I'm not really worried about it anymore. Not saying he's a sure thing but goalies are voodoo anyway, no sure things are available and I like what I've seen from him and I'd try sign him up for a three year extension or something like that. Depending on what their goalie experts say of course ...

One of the biggest questions I have is why, during what was probably the most pivotal point in the franchise's history, did shanahan hire a rookie GM the youngest in the league?Matthews will be an unrestricted free agent in 3 years; and the awful Marner contract. That's on Brendan Shanahan. WTF is he doing?

He had a few years under Lou to learn and he thought he was ready. I thought it was a good move and if covid hadn't hit us, things might have turned out a lot differently.

I've felt deep existential angst in my gut regarding a Leafs' trade announcement 3 times that I can recall:
1. Courtnall for Kordic
2. 1991 1st for Tom Kurvers (I had already been fantasizing that the Leafs in the 1991 was a real possibility)
3. The 2 unprotected 1sts for Phil Kessel.

Lanny McDonald followed by Darryl Sittler.

 

[justashadowof]

you forgot Rask for Raycroft

I didn't like it at all, I thought it was unbelievably stupid considering the horrifically bad year Raycroft had previously. The compensation should have been a mid round pick at most. But prospect goalies even 1st rounders are very indeterminate. I wasn't sure Rask was a guaranteed NHLer at that point, just an excellent goaltending prospect.

 

[justashadowof]

No one else had a seriously disgruntled Auston Matthews level player on the other side of the table.

I wonder if a seriously disgruntled Auston Matthews would score more than 1 goal in a 7 game playoff series against a team that lost more games than it won.

 

[sparxx87]

I was worried about his mental makeup but he's played well enough for long enough that I'm not really worried about it anymore. Not saying he's a sure thing but goalies are voodoo anyway, no sure things are available and I like what I've seen from him and I'd try sign him up for a three year extension or something like that. Depending on what their goalie experts say of course ...



He had a few years under Lou to learn and he thought he was ready. I thought it was a good move and if covid hadn't hit us, things might have turned out a lot differently.



Lanny McDonald followed by Darryl Sittler.

That’s fair. I guess I was really focused on how he’d perform when the stakes are highest.

Seeing that Gallagher goal float through his legs, I put my hands on my head and a verbal “ohhh noooo” ... Those ones hurt so bad. Can’t give them up ever, nevermind game 7.

 

[myleafs]

Can we trust the GM to make the right move though? It’s a scary premise, IMO.

Going by bogo and Brodie signings which were great signings imo, I think Dubas can do it but only if he can acknowledge what he tried isnt working and that he needs to change course somewhat. We have not seen him show in public anyways that he feels any need to do that and actually seems to be doubling down on his choices. He is literally staking his young career on his vision. Admirable I guess but maybe dumb. If it turns out he cant or wont adapt to the circumstances in front of him then he will get what he deserves.

 

[fahad203]

I've felt deep existential angst in my gut regarding a Leafs' trade announcement 3 times that I can recall:
1. Courtnall for Kordic
2. 1991 1st for Tom Kurvers (I had already been fantasizing that the Leafs in the 1991 was a real possibility)
3. The 2 unprotected 1sts for Phil Kessel.

Not even close for me. As soon as JFJ announced Rask trade I was disgusted. I just had this weird bad feeling we had fcked up

 

[myleafs]

I don't care who you are, you lose AGAIN in the playoffs in the first round, under-perform, fail to score a goal on the PP all year and into the playoffs and make 11 mill - maybe not a wise PR move to go out golfing the day after being eliminated. But he obviously gives no f***s

You mean like Kessel tweeting and posting how great night fishing is while the first round of the playoffs were taking place sans leafs? Talk about being Tone deaf, not reading the room.

 

[myleafs]

I don’t know how much more proof people need.
Spent half our cap on 4 forwards. Then required to trade away all our depth to support his boy band, traded away all our picks to get guys like Owen Nolan (I mean Foligno) and past the prime of Thornton etc.
With zero success in the playoffs to lesser competition each time and an easy division/half season to boot.

I mean what’s left for an encore?

Your being too generous...more like the corpse of Thornton, literally and figuratively. And I was a big Joe fan at one time.

 

[DuklaNation]

I've felt deep existential angst in my gut regarding a Leafs' trade announcement 3 times that I can recall:
1. Courtnall for Kordic
2. 1991 1st for Tom Kurvers (I had already been fantasizing that the Leafs in the 1991 was a real possibility)
3. The 2 unprotected 1sts for Phil Kessel.

I firmly believe the GM is the most important position in the franchise. Its why Dubas has to go. What has he done to deserve faith?

 

[3blizzard4]

Im hard pressed to think of a really good trade made in the past five years that really helped this team.

Maybe Anderson?

 

[4thline]

I wonder if a seriously disgruntled Auston Matthews would score more than 1 goal in a 7 game playoff series against a team that lost more games than it won.

I don't see how that has relevance to Matthews being able to essentially name his price and destination 2 years ago

 

[Gary Nylund]

Going by bogo and Brodie signings which were great signings imo, I think Dubas can do it but only if he can acknowledge what he tried isnt working and that he needs to change course somewhat. We have not seen him show in public anyways that he feels any need to do that and actually seems to be doubling down on his choices. He is literally staking his young career on his vision. Admirable I guess but maybe dumb. If it turns out he cant or wont adapt to the circumstances in front of him then he will get what he deserves.

This sums it up nicely for me. And if I'm his boss, I'm not waiting another year to see if he's ready to adapt, I want to know right now.

 

[justashadowof]

Lanny McDonald followed by Darryl Sittler.

Also didn't feel so hot when:
1. Gerry McNamara took garbage compensation for Gary Nylund.
2. Fletcher traded Todd Gill for Jamie Baker then later as the team was declining traded away its 1997 1st and my personal fave (Kenny Jonsson) to get back Wendel.
3. Each time Nik Antropov tore up his knees.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Also didn't feel so hot when:
1. Gerry McNamara took garbage compensation for Gary Nylund.
2. Fletcher traded Todd Gill for Jamie Baker then later as the team was declining traded away its 1997 1st and my personal fave (Kenny Jonsson) to get back Wendel.
3. Each time Nik Antropov tore up his knees.

Yeah we could make a pretty long list for sure.

 

[Aus34Matt]

Lou did not sell the farm to overpay Barzal and voila. one game away from round 3. Somewhere we can only dream about.

 

[justashadowof]

I firmly believe the GM is the most important position in the franchise. Its why Dubas has to go. What has he done to deserve faith?

To answer the question, his social skills are off the charts so that's one thing. Also I believe he represents something, hard to exactly pin down, not just youth, more like the essence of modern urban male, that so many other hockey men don't represent.

 

[hotpaws]

I don't see how that has relevance to Matthews being able to essentially name his price and destination 2 years ago

yup could have just walked out the door , lol

you know you can sit at your lap top and giggle while you post nonsense because you've run out of logical ways to defend the Dube but the fact is unless he can somehow pull a rabbit our of his ass this off season he'll be out of a job by the end of next year if not sooner

 

[4thline]

This sums it up nicely for me. And if I'm his boss, I'm not waiting another year to see if he's ready to adapt, I want to know right now.

I'm torn on that. Simply because if I'm his boss and his failing is going to be betting on those two young guns, his downfall is their downfall, so why not be damn sure and be ready to move on from all at once.