Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[rumman]

Many claimed if you bridge Marner, you will pay for it later. If he is up for renewal this summer, does he get more than what he got initially ? Bridge was the way to go. TB figured it out with Point and probably why they have a cup and are vying for a second.

On another note TB better not pull any Kutcherov sitting out a year and magically showing up in 100% game shape at playoff time. Total joke when we are sitting out players because every dollar counts and they add Kutch game 1 of the playoffs.

Rules are made to be bent, creative cap mgmt by Tampa’s front office this year imo.

 

[sparxx87]

I think the issue was that 6-7x3 was never being signed by MM. He saw/sees himself as Matthews equal and as such had much higher bridge number.

He should have been traded or left to sign an OS

“Sorry Mitch, we’d love to pay you all that and more, we think you’re with it.. but we’re bound by a salary cap and need to compete with the top organizations both on the ice and off... if making a few more million is more important than trying to win with the Maple Leafs, I’m sorry, but that doesn’t fit in our structure. Best of luck to you!”

 

[rumman]

And add on top of that someone making double digits and not performing.
22 million can be like 4/5 guys not performing.
It’s not a feasible build.

Not to mention if god forbid 1 or more of the 4 who take up the cap get hurt late season, it’s a recipe for disaster.......

 

[Gallagbi]

I think he will make a pretty big move.
I support a big move but I will reserve judgement on the quality of that move.
I don't hear anyone saying they favor standing pat If he tinkers and fails, he will be gone next year.

For the record, a big move does not have to include Matthews, Marner, Tavares and Nylander though it might, despite what Dubas & Shanny said publicly.

IMO, there is an excellent chance that the cap moves up 2MM after next year in addition to 1.2MM from the Kessel salary, thereby mitigating in part some of the strain of signing Rielly & Campbell (if they are part of the plan)

It's a good point, I think the BIGGEST move would be Nylander/Marner (Tavares and Matthews are locked in now for next year IMO), but moving in from Hyman, Rielly, Kerfoot are pretty notable for this team

 

[rumman]

@usernamezrhardtodo
“Hard to rise and grind when you wake up in satin sheets.”

That’s Hyman’s job, we elite, wait for him to get us the puck, or enter the zone with a elite zone entry, slam on the brakes and dish the puck before contact can be encountered.........

 

[Menzinger]

We had a discussion before of how things might look if Marner had received the Point bridge contract. Last year of a 6 million bridge. Think about that.
A complete 3rd line. Quality.
How would it be and would people pay 11 million on this new one?

At the time of the signing it seemed management was banking on a continuously rising cap..that between expansion, new tv deal and league gambling deal the cap would be sitting around 86-88 mil right now and the team could have a 9-10 mil 3rd line which would be fine/average (maybe even a but higher than average). Obviously covid has changed that situation drastically, killing cap growth for years.

Question.for management is can they adjust to keep that top heavy plan in place without the extra cap cushion or do they need a new strategy (or in time another group with a different strategy making the decisions)

 

[Gallagbi]

No, I’m worried about the support and structure around them... and how they’ll get enough of it to get over the hump with no money in the what could possibly be the last 3 years of Matthews. Their game gets easier with more talent around them... if they had another physical top line fwd in Hyman’s spot, do you think he misses all those chances?

Clock is ticking and this is a mess.

I'm less worried about that. We had scoring depth against CBJ that did nothing. We got great support from our depth players this year and our core simply didn't do enough.

You're going to live and die with this core if you're Dubas. As much as I love Hyman, swapping him and Galchenyuk for a Coleman/Goodrow/Hoffman can't be the difference between winning a cup vs a first round exit.

For goaltending I think you need need know what to expect. We counted on Fred in a different way than we'll count on Campbell Imo. We need Campbell to be Hawks Niemi or Wings Osgood. Go in with that expectation and it's a little different. If we pay him $5M a year and he continues to struggle in key spots like he did with Game 5/7 this year and he'll take more heat

 

[ToneDog]

Many here think they know what’s best, in hindsight bridging all 3 RFA’s would have been prudent, and probably what Lou would have done. I believe his reasoning would have been “want elite money, show us elite play.”

Lou did not sell the farm to overpay Barzal and voila. one game away from round 3. Somewhere we can only dream about.

 

[Trapper]

Many here think they know what’s best, in hindsight bridging all 3 RFA’s would have been prudent, and probably what Lou would have done. I believe his reasoning would have been “want elite money, show us elite play.”

I had no problem overpaying one. That would be Matthews.
If you looked at McDavid and Eichel getting the deals of 10-12 million, I get it.

That was your big commitment.
But oops, it’s only for 5 years.
Dubas is walking Matthews and Nylander to UFA in 3 more years. Maybe the question of who to trade won’t matter in 3 years. Who knows.

 

[ToneDog]

Rules are made to be bent, creative cap mgmt by Tampa’s front office this year imo.

We have the best capologists in the game yet they outdid us in the front office and on the ice.

 

[Gallagbi]

That quote is from two years ago. "If we hide from change.. we'll never find out" Well spoken but arguably they have now found out so time to change again

I guess I don't understand how he's hiding at all. He's been pretty consistent in his faith in the core and has/will continue to move pieces around the big 4. It may cost him his job, but that's not a secret.

 

[Trapper]

At the time of the signing it seemed management was banking on a continuously rising cap..that between expansion, new tv deal and league gambling deal the cap would be sitting around 86-88 mil right now and the team could have a 9-10 mil 3rd line which would be fine/average (maybe even a but higher than average). Obviously covid has changed that situation drastically, killing cap growth for years.

Question.for management is can they adjust to keep that top heavy plan in place without the extra cap cushion or do they need a new strategy (or in time another group with a different strategy making the decisions)

And what are your thoughts on it now?
The best laid plans of mice and men.

So now you know you have a flat cap.
You know you haven’t had playoff success.
You know Marner has had poor playoff performances even if you say you believe in him.
And you know 2 of your 4 have 3 years to UFA and Rielly one.

 

[sparxx87]

Yep. Its very fair to say Dubas' had opened himself to a number for very legit criticisms over the past while, critiquing him for celebrating a team championship is definitely just absurd though.

Anyone in a similar spot in any of the lower NHL levels would do the same. It's human nature.

Perspective is important. Winning is different when you’re in the middle of it, and it was interesting to some who have perspective, where Kyle Dubas’ particular interest and spike of emotion was in all of that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don’t often agree with a number of very good contributors to this site, but only a few stand out with their obnoxious arrogance like those ones.

and I’d actually exclude Zeke. He believes in his numbers but he’s never disrespectful or condescending when he’s wrong, at least to me.

Huh, interesting. He's all of that on a regular basis to me, maybe he doesn't like my avatar or something.

Haven't seen much of the dynamic duo since the season ended.

Would be cool if they stayed away forever. More than likely they'll be back at some point though, I think Zeke disappeared for a while after we lost to CLB last year as well.

@Gary Nylund Thoughts on this one?

Good to know that he's not disrespectful to everyone I guess?

@Gallagbi And about the goaltending - I like Jack Campbell, but for those who were worried about mental game and letting in soft goals in the playoffs with Freddy... how can you say Jack is a solution to that?

He’s a good backup, I’m still not seeing a starter

He played like a quality starter for us this season. I'd give him a chance to be the starter for sure and I'd feel pretty good at his chances of succeeding. I would also plan on starting him in less games than Freddie.

I think there are teams who'll take Marner and his contract, no retention necessary.

No question, Marner would fetch a huge return if we were to trade him.

Mixed feelings on Dubas. On one hand, I like most of the moves he's made so firing him seems dumb. His biggest sin was overpaying the big guns but even then, he didn't overpay them by that much and there aren't really any other bad contracts so there's that. The timing was just unfortunate as it turned out that covid hurt us possibly more than any other team, can't blame him for not seeing that coming. Thing is though, we are in that situation now due to covid and for that reason I think it's time to reconsider whether those 3 big contracts leave enough left over for the rest of the team. He's done a good job juggling until now and to be fair, the team looked pretty good for the first 4 games of the playoffs, not sure anyone predicted at that point that we're on the verge of collapse. At the same time, the juggling gets harder, even if it's just the fact that Hyman will cost more. I'd find out what his thoughts are, I think he needs to adjust and really the only move that makes sense to me is to mover Marner and ice a more balanced roster. If he's insistent that the big 3 all need to stay (really the big three, Nylander's contract is a tier below) then I'd give him a chance to defend his position but frankly, I don't see how it's defensible so if he wasn't able to win me over, I'd replace him right now.

 

[sparxx87]

I'm less worried about that. We had scoring depth against CBJ that did nothing. We got great support from our depth players this year and our core simply didn't do enough.

You're going to live and die with this core if you're Dubas. As much as I love Hyman, swapping him and Galchenyuk for a Coleman/Goodrow/Hoffman can't be the difference between winning a cup vs a first round exit.

For goaltending I think you need need know what to expect. We counted on Fred in a different way than we'll count on Campbell Imo. We need Campbell to be Hawks Niemi or Wings Osgood. Go in with that expectation and it's a little different. If we pay him $5M a year and he continues to struggle in key spots like he did with Game 5/7 this year and he'll take more heat

No, but that swap with more balance could be the difference of a goal or two that allows you to advance in a series with a tough matchup for your top guys.


... and how do the Wings or Hawks replace 30 mins from Lidstrom or Keith? They were kind of important in success with a subpar starter.

 

[justashadowof]

“Sorry Mitch, we’d love to pay you all that and more, we think you’re with it.. but we’re bound by a salary cap and need to compete with the top organizations both on the ice and off... if making a few more million is more important than trying to win with the Maple Leafs, I’m sorry, but that doesn’t fit in our structure. Best of luck to you!”

Should have done this before Marner. Dubas should have challenged Nylander to go out and sign an offer sheet to set his price. Then depending upon the price the team could have matched or taken the compensation. The rest would have fallen in place or the process could have been repeated with Marner.

This is an old discussion but I'm bringing it up again. Dubas is supposed to be in a politely *adversarial position with regards to contract negotiation. He shouldn't be their friend or ally. Dubas' loyalty should be to the hockey organization not the individual players. His goal in negotiations should be to squeeze his opponents to the benefit of MLSE. Less for your star players, more for other talent. His friend-to-my-players strategy is shockingly naive and was always doomed to failure. It doesn't require malice on the part of the players themselves to be an untenable situation especially considering that they employ agents to maximize their compensation. And the most amazing thing that we'll see if Dubas lasts farther into the future, his capitulation won't be rewarded in the future by these players, they will grow resent him regardless.

edit: changed "hostile" to "adversarial" (word escaped me)

 

[rumman]

I had no problem overpaying one. That would be Matthews.
If you looked at McDavid and Eichel getting the deals of 10-12 million, I get it.

That was your big commitment.
But oops, it’s only for 5 years.
Dubas is walking Matthews and Nylander to UFA in 3 more years. Maybe the question of who to trade won’t matter in 3 years. Who knows.

I feel for whoever takes over after Dubas, he’s ruining the team more each day, who knows what stupid short term moves he’ll make to try and save his job? Draft wise the cupboards are bare, nothing but smurfs in the pipe line, little to no room cap wise, yeah he’s going to have a hard time proving paying half 5he cap to 4 players is a successful way to build a cup contender?

 

[Menzinger]

And what are your thoughts on it now?
The best laid plans of mice and men.

So now you know you have a flat cap.
You know you haven’t had playoff success.
You know Marner has had poor playoff performances even if you say you believe in him.
And you know 2 of your 4 have 3 years to UFA and Rielly one.

I'd be fine giving the core one more attempt to see what it can do. Id explore trading just about anyone too depending on what the return was. But if they aren't going to touch the top 4 just about anyone else other than Campbell/a re-signed Spezza should potentially be up for a trade

The core forwards are all multi year contracts still and so Leafs management next off-season be it Dubas'/Shanahan or their replacements could still have ample time to explore more radical solutions like a total rebuild or retool.

Edit: I'd also wouldn't be 100% opposed to trading 1 of the core forwards this offseason but that circles back to what's the return.

 

[Mess]

If the GM has any brains he will say no. He will tell him one of the reasons he got to hoist the cup so early in his career is because Kucherov, Hedman and Stamkos all took less to win. You lay that at his feet and walk away. This sport is supposed to be about winning...not winning a big contract.

So what you're saying if I'm reading between the lines here correctly , is that its very important to have a good GM, who knows how to structure his contracts and pay his players according to the goal of winning the Stanley Cup. Where management sets the payscale and not the players, and you're either a team player and you buy in or you're out.

Here in Toronto where everybody gets $11 mil, and then the GM says "that's the plan and I'm sticking to it", despite the obvious return on investment producing 1st round losses, and disappointment. This is the perfect example of what not to do if long-term success is the objective here. Inmates running the Asylum generally doesn't produce positive desired results, no matter how long you allow it to continue.

Hard to argue with you there, and in fact couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[sparxx87]

Huh, interesting. He's all of that on a regular basis to me, maybe he doesn't like my avatar or something.



Would be cool if they stayed away forever. More than likely they'll be back at some point though, I think Zeke disappeared for a while after we lost to CLB last year as well.



Good to know that he's not disrespectful to everyone I guess?



He played like a quality starter for us this season. I'd give him a chance to be the starter for sure and I'd feel pretty good at his chances of succeeding. I would also plan on starting him in less games than Freddie.



No question, Marner would fetch a huge return if we were to trade him.

Mixed feelings on Dubas. On one hand, I like most of the moves he's made so firing him seems dumb. His biggest sin was overpaying the big guns but even then, he didn't overpay them by that much and there aren't really any other bad contracts so there's that. The timing was just unfortunate as it turned out that covid hurt us possibly more than any other team, can't blame him for not seeing that coming. Thing is though, we are in that situation now due to covid and for that reason I think it's time to reconsider whether those 3 big contracts leave enough left over for the rest of the team. He's done a good job juggling until now and to be fair, the team looked pretty good for the first 4 games of the playoffs, not sure anyone predicted at that point that we're on the verge of collapse. At the same time, the juggling gets harder, even if it's just the fact that Hyman will cost more. I'd find out what his thoughts are, I think he needs to adjust and really the only move that makes sense to me is to mover Marner and ice a more balanced roster. If he's insistent that the big 3 all need to stay (really the big three, Nylander's contract is a tier below) then I'd give him a chance to defend his position but frankly, I don't see how it's defensible so if he wasn't able to win me over, I'd replace him right now.

our different experiences with the same person made me chuckle? Maybe it’s because I get into with all the worst ones? It’s clouded my judgment.

re; Campbell I definitely think he had a solid year but hearing from some goalie coaches - they have some real concerns about his game that a team that does it’s homework can attack.

+ soft goals at bad time + injury.

I like Campbell and hope he proves me wrong, I just don’t feel very good about him being their best option.. especially in the playoffs.

 

[ToneDog]

I feel for whoever takes over after Dubas, he’s ruining the team more each day, who knows what stupid short term moves he’ll make to try and save his job? Draft wise the cupboards are bare, nothing but smurfs in the pipe line, little to no room cap wise, yeah he’s going to have a hard time proving paying half 5he cap to 4 players is a successful way to build a cup contender?

He has quite the challenge to turn it around this year. Not sure why management wants to roll the dice with Shanny and co. again with the fan base seriously up in arms.

 

[Gary Nylund]

At the time of the signing it seemed management was banking on a continuously rising cap..that between expansion, new tv deal and league gambling deal the cap would be sitting around 86-88 mil right now and the team could have a 9-10 mil 3rd line which would be fine/average (maybe even a but higher than average). Obviously covid has changed that situation drastically, killing cap growth for years.

Question.for management is can they adjust to keep that top heavy plan in place without the extra cap cushion or do they need a new strategy (or in time another group with a different strategy making the decisions)

Exactly this. Covid screwed us and I believe we do need a new strategy now. All we need to do is move Marner, problem solved.

For goaltending I think you need need know what to expect. We counted on Fred in a different way than we'll count on Campbell Imo. We need Campbell to be Hawks Niemi or Wings Osgood. Go in with that expectation and it's a little different. If we pay him $5M a year and he continues to struggle in key spots like he did with Game 5/7 this year and he'll take more heat

I'm just amazed that anyone is complaining about Campbell. The guy had a fantastic season and was arguably our best player in the playoffs. Every goalie gives up goals now and then that make them look a bit silly, every single one. Price is on fire but he gave up a few goals against us that didn't look great either. Expect perfection and every goalie will disappoint you, simple as that.

Some people blamed Freddie for game 7 last year - some cliche about deflating the team blah blah blah, now it's Campbell and game 7. I don't even know what to say, how anyone can blame the goalie when we can't score any goals is beyond me.

 

[rumman]

And what are your thoughts on it now?
The best laid plans of mice and men.

So now you know you have a flat cap.
You know you haven’t had playoff success.
You know Marner has had poor playoff performances even if you say you believe in him.
And you know 2 of your 4 have 3 years to UFA and Rielly one.

This is why having a experienced GM is mandatory.

 

[sparxx87]

Should have done this before Marner. Dubas should have challenged Nylander to go out and sign an offer sheet to set his price. Then depending upon the price the team could have matched or taken the compensation. The rest would have fallen in place or the process could have been repeated with Marner.

This is an old discussion but I'm bringing it up again. Dubas is supposed to be in a politely hostile position with regards to contract negotiation. He shouldn't be their friend or ally. Dubas' loyalty should be to the hockey organization not the individual players. His goal in negotiations should be to squeeze his opponents to the benefit of MLSE. Less for your star players, more for other talent. His friend-to-my-players strategy is shockingly naive and was always doomed to failure. It doesn't require malice on the part of the players themselves to be an untenable situation especially considering that they employ agents to maximize their compensation. And the most amazing thing that we'll see if Dubas lasts farther into the future, his capitulation won't be rewarded in the future by these players, they will grow resent him regardless.

This is why the contact discussions always go to shit on here. Some people make the case for why their player should make x dollars without realizing that they’re supposed to be on the teams side, making a case why they should pay less.

Dubas didn’t get this. He’d never negotiated a contract before.

 

[Trapper]

This is why having a experienced GM is mandatory.

Yeah that was a concern when it happened as well.
A rookie GM at the most critical time of signing Matthews/Marner/Nylander.

And he even admitted to not handling the Nylander contract well.

Red flags anyone.