Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[ShaneFalco]

He’s betting on himself just like Mike Babcock did. That went well.

Im tired of those betting on themselves.
Taking all they can in contracts without consequences.

Id like someone to do best for the team.

Yup just like Mike - this is what works and I'm not changing - results be damned. Except he's had no success whatsoever at the NHL level

 

[rumman]

So weird how the last three Cup winning GMs were also so full of ego and inexperience to think they had a right to celebrate with the team they constructed.

There's a lot of legit criticisms of Dubas but stuff like this is just pathetic.

not sure, but those trophy's don't look quite the same to y eye?

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

He really should've been a politician instead.

See, this is the problem with Duby. Instead of being a person who is reflective and saying that he tried to do something different and it didn't work out..and changing course to something more traditional that there are tons of templates of them working...he just doubles down. I was on the trade Marner bandwagon for the last week and then I realized who would be trading him away...I don't think you want a guy who is possibly on his last legs as a GM to be the guy making such a big franchise decision for us. Let the new guy come in and decide what to do. He will have the excuse of having to clean up his predecessors mess....sound familiar ?

Dubas doesn't even really know what toughness is. He thinks its Simmonds and a creaky Jumbo. I look at it differently. I think of Bonino type guy who has skill but won't put the puck over the glass to avoid a hit. I would think you can get some guys like that for a fair price. Instead...we have Engvall and his 'potential' which will never be fully realized because he is afraid of contact. They can't get him to change. Maybe it's because EVERYONE thinks they are a skilled scoring machine when they get here...even if they aren't.

 

[Notsince67]

In 2019 dubas traded kadri for kerfoot and barrie. The dubas fan boys couldn't help but rave over how much of a win it was for us. I tried to tell them otherwise and was mocked.

Same year they said this was the best leaf team we have had in decades. I told them it wasn't and they ridiculed me. Turns out we lost to our own 40 yo emergency back up and lost to a depleted jackets in a 5 round qualifier.

Any time I doubted dubas they mocked me and said I wasn't a real leaf fan. Why does a "real fan" have to agree with every move management makes?

Every move lou makes they trash and they blame as much as possible on him even though he's been gone for 3 years.

They try to give all the credit to trotz when lou is the one who hired him.

It is clear as day which gm is better and yet the dubas fan boys will still tell you otherwise using corsi and xgf lmao

I didn't see the criticism levied against you but I'll take your word for it. I have had some issues but I'm not upset.
As insufferable as that may seem, it pales with the characters that do nothing but trash this team or roots for the failure of either the team or individuals of the team.
That I have no patience for. Disagreement is fair.
I find those guys to put real meat to their arguments to which I can at least disagree with in a substantive way. Cognitive dissonance is a real thing so I don't hold much hope that I will change anyone's mind.

Talking trash is also a bit of a sport here.
I suggest you bookmark your negative interactions and keep your powder dry for an opportune time to highlight past statements. It's more satisfying to hit a zinger link on topic than to try to run someone off a board. Those guys at least put themselves out there and are fans of the team.

 

[hamzarocks]

Hopefully I don't see a marner social media post all of next year.

He shouldn't be doing anything but training to become a NHL star in the playoffs.

Get faster, stronger, and able to make plays when defenders are in tight

Matthews should also be practicing heavily on his play making and look at training with marner so they both can learn how to find one another in tight settings.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

This has been a constant with Dubas' teams.

Every single gritty physical player who comes here ends up completely abandoning that aspect of their game.

I agree...but the smart person in management would realize that they are buying a corvette and put Honda civic rims and tires on it is going to work against you. If you want a Civic...pay civic prices....not Corvette prices.

I think it comes down to culture. They hold their nose at gritty play because its what the non-talented players do...we are too skilled to get our hands dirty.

 

[rumman]

So it's pretty clear that they're getting another year, and it seems like (though could be a pokerface) they're keeping the core together.

Same thing happens next year. Rampant regular season success, playoff flameout, lacklustre performance from AM/MM.

You're the guy hired to replace Dubas. Do you look at trading both a la Richards/Carter?

I'd trade anyone if it made the team better, I hope the next GM thinks likewise?

 

[rumman]

He’s betting on himself just like Mike Babcock did. That went well.

Im tired of those betting on themselves.
Taking all they can in contracts without consequences.

Id like someone to do best for the team.

problem is he's losing with the house's money..........

 

[4thline]

Great question and I think many Flyers fans are still split in hindsight.

Difference for them, though, is that these players just signed extensions and they had a young Claude Giroux to build around at 1C.

I think the contract situation has me leaning that way. Hard to peg Matthews value 2 years from UFA, but I think it would be a clear step on either of those, probably closest to the Pronger trades.

Highly Regarded young top 6 forward with upside
NHL ready TOP d prospect
2x 1st round pick

Marner 3x from UFA, I don't know, still a solid package. I could see a Nash looking trade
1st
Solid D prospect
Solid top 6 wing
Young Top 9 C

All that, + Tavares and Nylander, plus some serious cash to play with in very strong looking FA class.

Edit- alternatively staying true to the Philly analogy- Couturier/Vorachek/Schenn/Simmonds to Tavares and Nylander.

 

[4thline]

I'd trade anyone if it made the team better, I hope the next GM thinks likewise?

Be bolder. Do you think they/you would be justified in moving on from AM/MM?

 

[rumman]

Be bolder. Do you think they/you would be justified in moving on from AM/MM?

I'd do it tomorrow if the trades improved the team. I bet the team's culture would improve too?

 

[ShaneFalco]

I could understand keeping the core intact if they showed heart, fight, constant improvement, desire to win/hate losing, stood up for eachother etc.
This core does none of that and folds every time. No fight, and unwilling to put the effort in. Doesn't matter who the supporting cast is.
They quit on Babcock and don't seem to play harder for Keefe.

 

[rumman]

I could understand keeping the core intact if they showed heart, fight, constant improvement, desire to win/hate losing, stood up for eachother etc.
This core does none of that and folds every time. No fight, and unwilling to put the effort in. Doesn't matter who the supporting cast is.
They quit on Babcock and don't seem to play harder for Keefe.

it would definitely make it more palatable, but I truly believe having half your cap devoted to 4 players is a unsuccessful strategy.

 

[Trapper]

I didn't see the criticism levied against you but I'll take your word for it. I have had some issues but I'm not upset.
As insufferable as that may seem, it pales with the characters that do nothing but trash this team or roots for the failure of either the team or individuals of the team.
That I have no patience for. Disagreement is fair.
I find those guys to put real meat to their arguments to which I can at least disagree with in a substantive way. Cognitive dissonance is a real thing so I don't hold much hope that I will change anyone's mind.

Talking trash is also a bit of a sport here.
I suggest you bookmark your negative interactions and keep your powder dry for an opportune time to highlight past statements. It's more satisfying to hit a zinger link on topic than to try to run someone off a board. Those guys at least put themselves out there and are fans of the team.

It’s tough to always weed it out on a faceless message board.

You have to get to know the genuine posters, what stage of life they are at and what kind of things they like.

Has Dubas done everything bad, no.
Did Lou do everything great, no.

Do I like the build, cap allocation and direction Dubas is taking us? Very much no.
Not my kind of team, or structure. Trouble is, I’m a Leaf fan so I’m stuck. And being stuck will probably look like a lot more negative than positive.
Change needs to happen IMO.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

problem is he's losing with the house's money..........

It's been 6 years since Kane and Toews signed the first deals over $10M....in those 6 years...Carey Price is the first guy to win a round...out of all the players making over 10M...only 1 has won a round (now 2)...so 17/18 highest paid players did not make the 2nd rd and we are STILL thinking that having 3 of them is ok? seriously?

I think his ego is too big to just admit it won't work and be more middle of the road with the cap allocation. How much more proof do you need than 1 guy making over $10M winning a series in 6 years of playoffs to see this is a house built on wishes?

 

[forecheck]

Haven't heard a peep out of Tannenbaum or MLSE supporting this Management team - I think /hope change is being considered .

 

[ToneDog]

it would definitely make it more palatable, but I truly believe having half your cap devoted to 4 players is a unsuccessful strategy.

Is it possible it could work with the right 4 players ? Say Matty, McDavid, Panarin and Pasta or Marchand ?? Possible but I do not think even that works unless you have some serious talent coming up on ELC.

 

[sparxx87]

I think the contract situation has me leaning that way. Hard to peg Matthews value 2 years from UFA, but I think it would be a clear step on either of those, probably closest to the Pronger trades.

Highly Regarded young top 6 forward with upside
NHL ready TOP d prospect
2x 1st round pick

Marner 3x from UFA, I don't know, still a solid package. I could see a Nash looking trade
1st
Solid D prospect
Solid top 6 wing
Young Top 9 C

All that, + Tavares and Nylander, plus some serious cash to play with in very strong looking FA class.

Edit- alternatively staying true to the Philly analogy- Couturier/Vorachek/Schenn/Simmonds to Tavares and Nylander.

I’m with you in theory, but the specific players are very important. With the right trade and right mix of talent it could work...

... my problem with this is the guy making the decisions. Most of his trades have made little sense philosophically for a team trying to win in the playoffs.

I don’t have much confidence in Kyle Dubas to trade Marner for a lesser collection of players that make more of an impact on winning when it matters.

 

[4thline]

Is it possible it could work with the right 4 players ? Say Matty, McDavid, Panarin and Pasta or Marchand ?? Possible but I do not think even that works unless you have some serious talent coming up on ELC.

It definitely is. If our guys elevate and deliver their regular season norms these last two weeks look very different.

The cap allocation is not on trial here. The faith placed in the core is.

 

[4thline]

I’m with you in theory, but the specific players are very important. With the right trade and right mix of talent it could work...

... my problem with this is the guy making the decisions. Most of his trades have made little sense philosophically for a team trying to win in the playoffs.

I don’t have much confidence in Kyle Dubas to trade Marner for a lesser collection of players that make more of an impact on winning when it matters.

If Dubas bets on keeping both and they're being traded next off-season he's not making the trades.

 

[sparxx87]

Is it possible it could work with the right 4 players ? Say Matty, McDavid, Panarin and Pasta or Marchand ?? Possible but I do not think even that works unless you have some serious talent coming up on ELC.

ELC talent will be important in this as well... on top of drafting another core player or two. (See Kucherov, Point, Kuznetsov, Carlson etc)

 

[ToneDog]

It definitely is. If our guys elevate and deliver their regular season norms these last two weeks look very different.

The cap allocation is not on trial here. The faith placed in the core is.

It would have been nice to see how this team measured up against the remaining American teams. Hopefully we will get a good sample next year.

 

[Notsince67]

Have to say, I don't mind his position.

It's not what I'd choose personally, but we're in a market that reacts and has been relatively quick to change. He's betting on himself and willing to face the consequences along with it. The easy thing to do would be make a major trade. It would likely buy him more time.

I think he will make a pretty big move.
I support a big move but I will reserve judgement on the quality of that move.
I don't hear anyone saying they favor standing pat If he tinkers and fails, he will be gone next year.

For the record, a big move does not have to include Matthews, Marner, Tavares and Nylander though it might, despite what Dubas & Shanny said publicly.

IMO, there is an excellent chance that the cap moves up 2MM after next year in addition to 1.2MM from the Kessel salary, thereby mitigating in part some of the strain of signing Rielly & Campbell (if they are part of the plan)

 

[sparxx87]

If Dubas bets on keeping both and they're being traded next off-season he's not making the trades.

This is what I ultimately expect and this is why I’m annoyed they don’t just accelerate the process. Let a new and more experienced eye assess what he has this year and go from there.

 

[Mess]

He is not hiding. I believe he is fixing his spreadsheet as somebody suggested a few of his cells might need fixing.

His expected xGF and xGA in his spreadsheet particularly need adjusting, because for some reason in reality on the ice the opposition with far weaker expected goals for and against keep coming out ahead in the win column.

Probably needs to realize and factor in playoff hockey (harder hitting, tighter checking, lower scoring) is not the same free wheeling stats padding that happens during the regular season. Case in point whatever his spreadsheet says for Marner xGF in the regular season, should be adjusted and then multiplied by Zero in that cell, to better reflect accurately his playoff xGF and actual GF to make them match.

Probably should have taken that into account when handing him his contract also, because 18 straight scoreless games over 3 playoff years probably should come in a little lower than $10.9 mil AAV. To be fair to Dubas, I tend to put more value on a players playoff contribution then his stats padding rather meaningless regular season ones, which contribute to determine nothing but playoff team rankings.

So I wouldn't of handed out that big contract until they earned it with playoff proven success and contribution first and then paid for performance and not the other way around like Dubas seems to believe is the best way to handle this. When players are returning Conn Smythe and Stanley Cups they have both proven it and earned it thereafter and nobody questions your value to the team. Paying 1st and then hoping for success seems to be this new wave GMing Dubas is trying out in Toronto. If that isn't working just keep repeating it out loud and doing the same thing over and over again until insanity sets in expecting a different outcome.

Then I look at a team like Tampa Bay GM, where they have a similar player to Marner comparable in Brayden Point .. They give him a 3 year bridge deal $6.75 mil and he is an RFA at the end. In his first year of the contract he puts up 23 games 14 goals 19 assists 33 points and hoist the Stanley Cup with his teammates. In his 2nd playoff year he has 7 goals and 10 points in 10 games as his team is about to reach the final 4, on their way to potentially another Cup win. So when Point contract comes up next and its time to approach his GM in another year and half for a nice $$ raise, and says" I want the Marner contract" what is the GM going to say "NO"?