Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[ToneDog]

Exactly this. Covid screwed us and I believe we do need a new strategy now. All we need to do is move Marner, problem solved.



I'm just amazed that anyone is complaining about Campbell. The guy had a fantastic season and was arguably our best player in the playoffs. Every goalie gives up goals now and then that make them look a bit silly, every single one. Price is on fire but he gave up a few goals against us that didn't look great either. Expect perfection and every goalie will disappoint you, simple as that.

Some people blamed Freddie for game 7 last year - some cliche about deflating the team blah blah blah, now it's Campbell and game 7. I don't even know what to say, how anyone can blame the goalie when we can't score any goals is beyond me.

Agree but the first one in game 7 can't go in when your guys are not scoring. It was game, set and match after the Gallagher goal.

 

[sparxx87]

Yeah that was a concern when it happened as well.
A rookie GM at the most critical time of signing Matthews/Marner/Nylander.

And he even admitted to not handling the Nylander contract well.

Red flags anyone.

Which turns out to be the most palatable.

Wonder what he thinks or Marner? Or Matthews getting max dollar on shorter term?

 

[Gallagbi]

No, but that swap with more balance could be the difference of a goal or two that allows you to advance in a series with a tough matchup for your top guys.

But you have to get that scoring and they're no guarantee either. We had better scoring depth previously that didn't produce. We've also seen guys like Hyman score some clutch goals. At the end of the day this team will live and die with the core.

... and how do the Wings or Hawks replace 30 mins from Lidstrom or Keith? They were kind of important in success with a subpar starter.

You're overthinking this IMO. Both were key players on great teams that didn't focus around strong goaltending. They're also MUCH different D and Keith was prone to mistakes. They're not similar and were not trying to recreate the exact team makeup. The Leafs will need to limit chances and overcome a few bad goals here and there. They won't need a Keith or Lidstrom to do it.

You could throw in Cam Ward or Matt Murray there instead if it's easier for you to reconcile as goalies that got hot at the right times, but weren't overly dependable throughout their careers.

 

[4thline]

Should have done this before Marner. Dubas should have challenged Nylander to go out and sign an offer sheet to set his price. Then depending upon the price the team could have matched or taken the compensation. The rest would have fallen in place or the process could have been repeated with Marner.

Eh, to me it all comes down to Marner.
Nylander wanted a little more than we wanted to pay, was a reasonable negotiation. Not worth burning the bridge. Should have been done faster

Matthews had the hammer. He had UFA level leverage. With him already pissed at Babs Dubas' only decision was to try and salvage a longterm future or not.

Marner had.. ego issues. He's like 1.5-2m overpaid. That's worth fighting/drawing a line in the sand.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Should have done this before Marner. Dubas should have challenged Nylander to go out and sign an offer sheet to set his price. Then depending upon the price the team could have matched or taken the compensation. The rest would have fallen in place or the process could have been repeated with Marner.

This is an old discussion but I'm bringing it up again. Dubas is supposed to be in a politely hostile position with regards to contract negotiation. He shouldn't be their friend or ally. Dubas' loyalty should be to the hockey organization not the individual players. His goal in negotiations should be to squeeze his opponents to the benefit of MLSE. Less for your star players, more for other talent. His friend-to-my-players strategy is shockingly naive and was always doomed to failure. It doesn't require malice on the part of the players themselves to be an untenable situation especially considering that they employ agents to maximize their compensation. And the most amazing thing that we'll see if Dubas lasts farther into the future, his capitulation won't be rewarded in the future by these players, they will grow resent him regardless.

Good post, well said. Being the players buddy might help if they negotiated their own contracts but since they all have agents, what's the point? Hopefully he'll learn from his mistakes but geez, sure would have been nice to have Lou for a bit longer so he could negotiate those deals.

our different experiences with the same person made me chuckle? Maybe it’s because I get into with all the worst ones? It’s clouded my judgment.

re; Campbell I definitely think he had a solid year but hearing from some goalie coaches - they have some real concerns about his game that a team that does it’s homework can attack.

+ soft goals at bad time + injury.

I like Campbell and hope he proves me wrong, I just don’t feel very good about him being their best option.. especially in the playoffs.

OK I'm sure there are people who know a lot more about goalies than I do so won't comment other than to say I hope they're wrong. Or that they're right but Campbell can work on what needs to to improve. He looked damn good to me this season though, he really did. And I already said I'm not concerned about the softies at all, every goalie let's in softies, Price let in his share against us so ...

 

[sparxx87]

But you have to get that scoring and they're no guarantee either. We had better scoring depth previously that didn't produce. We've also seen guys like Hyman score some clutch goals. At the end of the day this team will live and die with the core.


You're overthinking this IMO. Both were key players on great teams that didn't focus around strong goaltending. They're also MUCH different D and Keith was prone to mistakes. They're not similar and were not trying to recreate the exact team makeup. The Leafs will need to limit chances and overcome a few bad goals here and there. They won't need a Keith or Lidstrom to do it.

You could throw in Cam Ward or Matt Murray there instead if it's easier for you to reconcile as goalies that got hot at the right times, but weren't overly dependable throughout their careers.

The right depth is important, though. Not just regular season stats but players who can produce points the way they’re scored in the playoffs. 80% hard work and 20% skill.

I like Hyman, I just think a first liner who could add the physical element with a little more talent would finish more chances and create more opportunities for his line.

Murray isn’t good and his fall off was to be expected... but Cam Ward was a very good goalie. He had some injuries and inconsistencies but when he was on, he was one of the best in the game.

I don’t ever think that’s happening with Campbell. Even Murray is more fundamentally sound.

 

[rumman]

Yeah that was a concern when it happened as well.
A rookie GM at the most critical time of signing Natthews/Marner/Nylander.

And he even admitted to not handling the Nylander contract well.

Red flags anyone.

Everything went sour since the Nylander contract, boy wonder let “we can, and we will” take away his leverage and judgement. Best option was to let him sit, that would have been a wake up call to future RFA’s that the new guy isn’t to be trifled with. In retrospect WN sucked that hold out year so notjing really lost except that the team was killing it without Willy boy.

As to the flat cap or pandemic being a factor I say bs, everyone whose lived thru tough times knows you have to put something away for a rainy day, you don’t go out and blow all your allowance as fast as you can because you just never know when that cap flexibility will come in handy.......

 

[Gary Nylund]

Agree but the first one in game 7 can't go in when your guys are not scoring. It was game, set and match after the Gallagher goal.

If it's game, set and match after one goal, there's something really wrong with the mental makeup of the team. But I guess we knew that already ...

A team with a better attitude maybe thinks this way: OK guys, we can't f*** around when our goalie let in a softie, time to kick it into high gear like RIGHT NOW!

Eh, to me it all comes down to Marner.
Nylander wanted a little more than we wanted to pay, was a reasonable negotiation. Not worth burning the bridge. Should have been done faster

Matthews had the hammer. He had UFA level leverage. With him already pissed at Babs Dubas' only decision was to try and salvage a longterm future or not.

Marner had.. ego issues. He's like 1.5-2m overpaid. That's worth fighting/drawing a line in the sand.

Yup. I remember I was in my car listening to the radio when I heard about Marner's contract. I was just so shocked, lucky I didn't cause an accident.

 

[myleafs]

Yup, did exactly what many wanted Babcock to do with the young guns, I guess the gud pro knew something about player deployment?

The sweet spot was somewhere between how Babs deployed the 2 amigos and how Keefe did. One extreme to the next. Not playing the hot line or the hot player more was more of a head scratcher to me. 2nd line with willie, galch and kerfoot played great together so I know lets put Foligno who has been out with injury and clearly still injured on that line and break it up. Or the HEM line when they played were great together, we could all see that. Why break it up? some weird decisions were made.

 

[justashadowof]

Eh, to me it all comes down to Marner.
Nylander wanted a little more than we wanted to pay, was a reasonable negotiation. Not worth burning the bridge
Matthews had the hammer. He had UFA level leverage.
Marner had.. ego issues. He's like 1.5-2m overpaid. That's worth fighting/drawing a line in the sand.

But without being a hard ass with Nylander he signalled to Marner's (and Matthews') agent that he was a softy in negotiations. Do not forget that Marner's numbers were significantly better than Nylander's.

 

[rumman]

The sweet spot was somewhere between how Babs deployed the 2 amigos and how Keefe did. One extreme to the next. Not playing the hot line or the hot player more was more of a head scratcher to me. 2nd line with willie, galch and kerfoot played great together so I know lets put Foligno who has been out with injury and clearly still injured on that line and break it up. Or the HEM line when they played were great together, we could all see that. Why break it up? some weird decisions were made.

Is one scenario better than the other?

 

[Trapper]

If it's game, set and match after one goal, there's something really wrong with the mental makeup of the team. But I guess we knew that already ...

A team with a better attitude maybe thinks this way: OK guys, we can't f*** around when our goalie let in a softie, time to kick it into high gear like RIGHT NOW!



Yup. I remember I was in my car listening to the radio when I heard about Marner's contract. I was just so shocked, lucky I didn't cause an accident.

I remember saying win this in 6 because I don’t trust them in 7.

 

[sparxx87]

Good post, well said. Being the players buddy might help if they negotiated their own contracts but since they all have agents, what's the point? Hopefully he'll learn from his mistakes but geez, sure would have been nice to have Lou for a bit longer so he could negotiate those deals.



OK I'm sure there are people who know a lot more about goalies than I do so won't comment other than to say I hope they're wrong. Or that they're right but Campbell can work on what needs to to improve. He looked damn good to me this season though, he really did. And I already said I'm not concerned about the softies at all, every goalie let's in softies, Price let in his share against us so ...

On this site there’s someone in the Campbell thread whose a goalie coach.. likewise, one of my favourite Habs posters gave a great analysis of the goalie matchup in one of the threads.

...also have a friend who used to run goalie clinics that seems like he’s never wrong about these.

So much nuance. I’m no expert so I try to listen to those who’re usually right.

 

[ToneDog]

If it's game, set and match after one goal, there's something really wrong with the mental makeup of the team. But I guess we knew that already ...

A team with a better attitude maybe thinks this way: OK guys, we can't f*** around when our goalie let in a softie, time to kick it into high gear like RIGHT NOW!



Yup. I remember I was in my car listening to the radio when I heard about Marner's contract. I was just so shocked, lucky I didn't cause an accident.

I was driving when I heard Courtnall for Kordic. I call it road rage.

 

[myleafs]

Is one scenario better than the other?

Im not following?

 

[Trapper]

But without being a hard ass with Nylander he signalled to Marner's (and Matthews') agent that he was a softy in negotiations. Do not forget that Marner's numbers were significantly better than Nylander's.

You are the boss.
You don’t have to be a jerk but you are not their buddy.
It really feels Dubas puts the concerns of the individual ahead of the team.
Protect them sure, but not one guy is bigger than the team.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Agree but the first one in game 7 can't go in when your guys are not scoring. It was game, set and match after the Gallagher goal.

Agreed whether you like Soup or not, I like him, but when goals like 1st goal of game 1 against CLB goes in on Freddy or 1st goal game 7 against Habs goes in on Soup .. those are house league level saves and winning teams get those saves every time .. those kinda misses kill teams especially when teams like CLB and Habs can setup their trap games on us .. these teams know we can't forecheck worth a sh*t so we are an easy beat with a trap .. that is why i don't mind going freewheel with tampa because against us they want to outduel us which gives us a better chance

 

[Gary Nylund]

On this site there’s someone in the Campbell thread whose a goalie coach.. and one of my favourite Habs posters gave a great analysis of the goalie matchup.

...also have a friend who used to run goalie clinics that seems like he’s never wrong about these.

So much nuance. I’m no expert so I try to listen to those who’re usually right.

There was a poster, I think spidergoalie or something who seemed like he knew his stuff, haven't seen him post lately which is too bad. Would be interesting to know what he thinks of Campbell.

 

[Gallagbi]

The right depth is important, though. Not just regular season stats but players who can produce points the way they’re scored in the playoffs. 80% hard work and 20% skill.

I like Hyman, I just think a first liner who could add the physical element with a little more talent would finish more chances and create more opportunities for his line.

I think you saw an injured Hyman this playoffs personally, but he's been a pretty consider 25+ goal player for over 2 years. I think he's just as likely to break through as some of the alternatives.

I'm fine with moving on for a different team makeup, but he's well down the blame list for me.

Personally I'd build some more consistent uptempo players down our depth chart, but it won't matter if Marner and Matthews struggle to score.

Murray isn’t good and his fall off was to be expected... but Cam Ward was a very good goalie. He had some injuries and inconsistencies but when he was on, he was one of the best in the game.

I don’t ever think that’s happening with Campbell. Even Murray is more fundamentally sound.

Cam Ward won a Conn Smythe playing the year as a rookie with a sub .890 save% . He followed it up with a sub .900 save% the following year. To put it in perspective he followed up the Conn Smythe performance with a season .003 points above Andrew Raycrofts performance that cost him his career as a starter. Ward had some great and not so great years

 

[rumman]

Im not following?

Both were mismanagement of roster imo, but Leaf nation wanted the kids to be ridden hard, which Keefe did all season long, no gas left for the playoffs. Bab’s was wise enough to conserve fuel for the post season.

 

[Mess]

We had a discussion before of how things might look if Marner had received the Point bridge contract. Last year of a 6 million bridge. Think about that.
A complete 3rd line. Quality.
How would it be and would people pay 11 million on this new one?

If Marner were on a 3 year $6 mil bridge deal, and in year #1 he produced 4 assists in 5 playoff game loss to CBJ, and then in year #2 produced 4 assists in another 7 game team loss to underdog Montreal, now going 18 games without a goal.

Then not only would the GM be getting criticism for overpaying even at that threshold, but the fan base would still be asking for his departure never mind considering the thought of re-signing him for $11 mil which would be laughable at that point. IMO

Instead we have an ineffective overpaid $11 mil non-playoff performer, and a defiant GM that claims "we can and we will", and a President that claims everyone is safe, and his Shanaplan is going perfectly as planned so steady as she blows. They're in charge so they must know what their doing, right?

 

[sparxx87]

There was a poster, I think spidergoalie or something who seemed like he knew his stuff, haven't seen him post lately which is too bad. Would be interesting to know what he thinks of Campbell.

To be clear, Campbell is a good goalie. He’s an athlete, he battles, and most importantly he gets in front of it... but some fundamentals, particularly his movement from certain angles is apparently glaring...

... and everyone says too hard on himself. Need to be able to put the bad ones behind you and reset. Questions about his mental approach, even though it’s so likeable in interviews. Need to be a little big arrogant to be good. He’s the farthest thing from it.

 

[4thline]

But without being a hard ass with Nylander he signalled to Marner's (and Matthews') agent that he was a softy in negotiations. Do not forget that Marner's numbers were significantly better than Nylander's.

Signals had nothing to do with it, leverage isn't transitive. He could have literally spit in Nylander's face and told him to rot in Sweden for a year, and Matthews would still have been in the position to say "That's nice, he's not me. I'm not happy, if you don't give me what I want someone will"

Each player was worth a different amount, with a different amount of leverage. The only result that was way out of line was Marner's.

 

[sparxx87]

I think you saw an injured Hyman this playoffs personally, but he's been a pretty consider 25+ goal player for over 2 years. I think he's just as likely to break through as some of the alternatives.

I'm fine with moving on for a different team makeup, but he's well down the blame list for me.

Personally I'd build some more consistent uptempo players down our depth chart, but it won't matter if Marner and Matthews struggle to score.


Cam Ward won a Conn Smythe playing the year as a rookie with a sub .890 save% . He followed it up with a sub .900 save% the following year. To put it in perspective he followed up the Conn Smythe performance with a season .003 points above Andrew Raycrofts performance that cost him his career as a starter. Ward had some great and not so great years

I’m not blaming Hyman, and I agree... I just think more talent around them.

I think selling Hyman as 25+ goals is a little ambitious.

And stop focusing on numbers. Go watch the Canes playoff run where he was almost unbeatable. Do you want a guy that can put up better numbers over a stretch, or a guy who can raise his game when most important?

Pre injury, Ward was a really good money goalie.

 

[tronoleaf]

One of the biggest questions I have is why, during what was probably the most pivotal point in the franchise's history, did shanahan hire a rookie GM the youngest in the league?Matthews will be an unrestricted free agent in 3 years; and the awful Marner contract. That's on Brendan Shanahan. WTF is he doing?