Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[JT AM da real deal]

It always starts at top and failure can't be rewarded .. 5 years of same old same old is enough .. next year team will be out of playoffs scenario back in old division and zero Mitch trade value .. then it will be too late to reconfigure

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Dubas? yes, Shanny? no not yet.

nither one will be fired Dubas has excuses to buy him another year, he can point to the short season, the Tavares injury etc but next year should be a full year that HAS to be it

 

[TheGoldenJet]

At the very least, (and I don’t want this) but at the very least, if Dubas stays, I want him to acknowledge that the core is an issue (in whatever diplomatic terms you like) and that this is the final countdown to major change.

If he stays. No more process, learning, it’s tough, additional support vets, nothing.

Do or die core.

I thought that was last year?

 

[sparxx87]

Dubas? yes, Shanny? no not yet.

nither one will be fired Dubas has excuses to buy him another year, he can point to the short season, the Tavares injury etc but next year should be a full year that HAS to be it

At that point the new regime will have two years to build a team Auston Matthews wants to be apart of going forward.

Dubas shouldn’t have been hired in the first place. Keeping him another year would be pure lunacy but I expect it to happen because Leafs.

 

[Trapper]

I thought that was last year?

Oh it was which i why I say I don’t want this.
But what I want and what is are two different things.

 

[EGL22]

Shamahan took over and cleaned house making the Shanaplan,build slowly and with solid drafts,slow cooking not rushing prospects,responsible cap managment and respect up and down in the organization.
He brought in Lou who set up total respect,fixed the cap,did well drafting and cleaned out a lot of dead cap to have a very hefty amount of cap room.
At this time the team had record points and getting much needed experience and confidence all the while maintaining a proud and respectful reputation.

Then Shanny had Dubas in his ear and he bumped Lou and went a different way and we got the old way the Leafs used to operate when talent rushed and wasted,cap blown,players showing disrespect and no heart and bad moves getting over the hill players and trading away all their picks.
In a time of needed calm and experience we also get a rookie coach,the opposite of what was needed.

Team Dubas proceeds to get worse every season cannot win a playoff game,has bad cap issues,has player issues,contract issues and very soon window winning issues.

Shanahan made his decisions to alter the plan and go with Dubas who has taken the team backwards not forwards and with the years left on those terrible contracts not much time left for correction.

There is little time for new Prez and GM to make corrections before the contracts end but some time is better than no time and we already know Dubas will not change any of 'his guys' because it would show he was not the smartest guy in the room the last 3 years and he will never admit that.
This is pretty much the same for Shanny who made his new bed with Dubas and messed it all up.

In 3 years nothing has changed except the team is in worse shape than it was when Dubas took over so he got his shot and needs to go before making it any worse.
Shanny got his man Babs and then Lou and firse both and his replacements have done worse so he has had enough chances as well.

Fresh vision,new moves that have no strings to the present players is needed.
Matthews contract will be ending soon,my bet is he is a goner,what little time left we have with him is the window a new good GM might be able to get us to the top.

 

[cupcrazyman]

I wanted Mark Hunter as the Leafs GM

 

[ottomaddox]

I think the management team has to resign.

Toronto fans want blood now. There is no way they are going to accept this choke job vs. Montreal.

The jeers are so loud now.

The Leafs f***ing blew it.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Dubas messed up the contracts.

The damage is done.

He's otherwise fine at the job.

He should have bridged all 3.

His insistence on long term deals which he spoke to the media about was DUMB.

If Nylander holds out on me past the start of the season, 100% automatic bridge only.

The fact he gave 10.8 to Marner after Rantonen was a complete laughing stock.

100% bridge.

I think you dont bridge Matthews unless he wants 11. He wanted 11 -> Bridge. Admittedly I didnt commit to that before he was traded whereas I did bridge Nylander and Marner.

 

[ottomaddox]

Dubas messed up the contracts.

The damage is done.

He's otherwise fine at the job.

He should have bridged all 3.

His insistence on long term deals which he spoke to the media about was DUMB.

If Nylander holds out on me past the start of the season, 100% automatic bridge only.

The fact he gave 10.8 to Marner after Rantonen was a complete laughing stock.

100% bridge.

I think you dont bridge Matthews unless he wants 11. He wanted 11 -> Bridge. Admittedly I didnt commit to that before he was traded whereas I did bridge Nylander and Marner.

Are you Kyle Dubas?

 

[Mess]

Ownership must be noticing the organization is trending in the wrong direction.

The Leafs miss the playoffs 9 of 10 years (with only that lockout shorted collapse to Boston) as it only playoff appearance.

They hire Shanahan to turn this around.

1 ) Hire coach Mike Babcock
2) Hire GM Lou Lamoriello
Results:
Year #1 (2015-16) - Last overall 69 points and draft Auston Matthews.
Year #2 (2016-17) - A +26 point improvement under new Coach and GM to 95 points [Lost in round #1 in 6 games to Washington]
Year #3 (2017-18) - A +10 point improvement to set a new 100 year old All-Time Leafs franchise best mark for both points (105) and wins (49). [Lost in round #1 as underdogs to Boston in 7 games]

3) Replace Lou Lam with Kyle Dubas as GM and let Lamoriello go from the organization.
Results:
Year #1 (2018-19) - -5 point decline to 100 points [Lost in round #1 to Boston in 7 games (after being up 3 games to 2]
Year #2 (2019-20)
4) Replace coach Mike Babcock with Keefe mid season - 81 points in 70 games pandemic shutdown ( 95 point pace) [ Lost in play-in round as favourites to CBJ in 5] fail to qualify for final 16.
Year #3 (2020-21) - Finish 1st in the new all CDN div with heavy favourites headed into playoffs. [Lost in round #1 to #16 Montreal in 7 after collapsing from 3-1 up]

Leafs results are declining when they switched GMs from Lou Lam to Dubas, and then their 2 most embarrassing losses have been since replacing coach Babcock with Keefe and the organization going in the wrong direction.

Shanny must currently be living off the early success of Lou Lam and Babcock and have some real explaining to do why he switched HHOF GM and Top 7 winning coach with now declining and disappointing results, with young and inexperienced execs that are learning on the job.

This has to the 1st year Shanny is feeling the heat and by extension as is Dubas.

 

[LeafGrief]

Nay.

I can see why they are in the hot seat, because the on ice product is ultimately their responsibility. But I look at the Leafs on paper, which is their job to assemble and I see a team that looks great. If Kyle Dubas's job is to put together a team of good hockey players, I like what he's done. He can't go out there on the ice and force them to start on time, or trade for a guy who will rub their backs or kick their asses when they need it. This is a good team on paper and at some point the players have to carry their own end of the bargain. I do not believe that the players did that, therefore I do not believe that it is the GM's and President's fault.

Dubas is the guy who got us Campbell. Dubas is the guy who got us Brodie and Muzzin. Dubas has been trying to fix the team's problems and doing a pretty solid job the entire way through. He created new problems with those big contracts, but don't tell me that the problem is the contracts when the actual problem is that Matthews, Marner, and Tavares (not his fault) combined for 9 total points! 1 goal from 33m in forwards is not the GM's fault.

Ultimately, I don't really care if Shanahan and Dubas are fired at this point. I'll throw Keefe in there with them too. Don't really care. If they're fired, they're fired and I hope that we don't hire somebody worse. But I think that accountability is necessary and accountability for this collapse must fall to the players. I'd choose to keep them because on the balance I like what Dubas has done and frankly I'd like him to just hulk out at this afternoon's press conference and scream, "WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FROM ME?"

 

[cannucky]

Dubass didn't just mess up the contracts he polluted the culture , Don't like the coach holding you responsible ? fine I'll fire the coach , want to hold out for more money ? fine i'll cave and give you whatever you want . He empowered the players to run the team themselves . This team goes nowhere without a complete change of culture and that comes from the top down . Everybody talks crap about Torts but look at what he's done for teams where management backed him to the hilt . Columbus will be a joke for the next couple of years because upper management bailed on him and the players are jumping from a sinking ship knowing he is leaving . If playing for him is the problem why are they leaving when they know he isn't coming back ?

 

[koyvoo]

If nothing is done about our two gutless superstar fakers, it doesn’t really matter much (for now) what happens behind the scenes

You can have a perennial coach of the year candidate here. If he has to lead on two spineless fairies as his go to guys, it’s not going to happen.

 

[SwiftJacobs]

Wow, I didn't know that. Guess that's the reason I'll be watching the Jets/Canadiens game tonight.

The Leafs farm system is or was the best because of the payroll they had. They have one of the highest payrolls in the AHL and it shows. When you have the funds to spend you can buy a Championship.

 

[cannucky]

Nay.

I can see why they are in the hot seat, because the on ice product is ultimately their responsibility. But I look at the Leafs on paper, which is their job to assemble and I see a team that looks great. If Kyle Dubas's job is to put together a team of good hockey players, I like what he's done. He can't go out there on the ice and force them to start on time, or trade for a guy who will rub their backs or kick their asses when they need it. This is a good team on paper and at some point the players have to carry their own end of the bargain. I do not believe that the players did that, therefore I do not believe that it is the GM's and President's fault.

Dubas is the guy who got us Campbell. Dubas is the guy who got us Brodie and Muzzin. Dubas has been trying to fix the team's problems and doing a pretty solid job the entire way through. He created new problems with those big contracts, but don't tell me that the problem is the contracts when the actual problem is that Matthews, Marner, and Tavares (not his fault) combined for 9 total points! 1 goal from 33m in forwards is not the GM's fault.

Ultimately, I don't really care if Shanahan and Dubas are fired at this point. I'll throw Keefe in there with them too. Don't really care. If they're fired, they're fired and I hope that we don't hire somebody worse. But I think that accountability is necessary and accountability for this collapse must fall to the players. I'd choose to keep them because on the balance I like what Dubas has done and frankly I'd like him to just hulk out at this afternoon's press conference and scream, "WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FROM ME?"

Of course the contracts are the problem because they are the first crack in the wall of team culture , If he tells Nylander 5x5 years or go home and sticks to it either Nylander signs at midnight or he goes home and we pull his insurance , then we very publicly tell him " oh by the way next years offer is 4x6 years or stay home " . What do you think that does to Mathews and Marner when there agents come knocking ? and forget JT that was just a dumb move for a team that was supposed to be rebuilding the right way and building a team culture , there are no 11 million dollar shortcuts to a dynasty ask the Oilers how that works . This is all on Dubass which puts it all on Shanny for pushing solid long term winners away to go with this analytics golden boy .No more excuses everybody said last year this was his last chance well tho long thucker you blew it . I guarantee you under Lou or Hunter thats what would have happened to Nylander and we would be looking at Mathews and Marner in the 7-8 range with term no JT and Nylander either at 4 or 5 or not in the NHL , Zero sense of entitlement in the locker room , and we're playing the Jets tonight as well .

 

[Garthinater]

How many other gms inherit a 105 point team with loads of cap and some very good rfas?

Now out of those, how many have lost 4 years in a row during their first series?

Now out of those, how many get to keep their job?

Dubas has to go. It is clear he has no idea what he's doing.

Imagine if we still had lou this whole time.

 

[cannucky]

Oh and for the trade Marner crew I ask where ? what team is going to trade for his 10.903 AAv , 10.358 actual next year in this flat cap market ? Marner is going nowhere even his buyout is undoable the only way He or JT are going away is if someone Tanya Harding's them and the insurance company has to eat their loss , Mathews can be sold to Arizona as their new poster boy plus his deal was more front end loaded than Marners so his money could be recovered , the other 2 we will have to eat at least half of their salary . Do you really want to pay 5-6 million a year to Mitch Marner while he beats up on us every year for someone else ? figure it out eh !

 

[superdee]

Dubas built the best/deepest team and best farm system we've had in ages (outside of top guys like Nylander coming through).

At some point the players just have to get the f***ing job done.

Dubas didn’t build that Lou and Mark did he got to inherit and take the credit

 

[Garthinater]

Ownership must be noticing the organization is trending in the wrong direction.

The Leafs miss the playoffs 9 of 10 years (with only that lockout shorted collapse to Boston) as it only playoff appearance.

They hire Shanahan to turn this around.

1 ) Hire coach Mike Babcock
2) Hire GM Lou Lamoriello
Results:
Year #1 (2015-16) - Last overall 69 points and draft Auston Matthews.
Year #2 (2016-17) - A +26 point improvement under new Coach and GM to 95 points [Lost in round #1 in 6 games to Washington]
Year #3 (2017-18) - A +10 point improvement to set a new 100 year old All-Time Leafs franchise best mark for both points (105) and wins (49). [Lost in round #1 as underdogs to Boston in 7 games]

3) Replace Lou Lam with Kyle Dubas as GM and let Lamoriello go from the organization.
Results:
Year #1 (2018-19) - -5 point decline to 100 points [Lost in round #1 to Boston in 7 games (after being up 3 games to 2]
Year #2 (2019-20)
4) Replace coach Mike Babcock with Keefe mid season - 81 points in 70 games pandemic shutdown ( 95 point pace) [ Lost in play-in round as favourites to CBJ in 5] fail to qualify for final 16.
Year #3 (2020-21) - Finish 1st in the new all CDN div with heavy favourites headed into playoffs. [Lost in round #1 to #16 Montreal in 7 after collapsing from 3-1 up]

Leafs results are declining when they switched GMs from Lou Lam to Dubas, and then their 2 most embarrassing losses have been since replacing coach Babcock with Keefe and the organization going in the wrong direction.

Shanny must currently be living off the early success of Lou Lam and Babcock and have some real explaining to do why he switched HHOF GM and Top 7 winning coach with now declining and disappointing results, with young and inexperienced execs that are learning on the job.

This has to the 1st year Shanny is feeling the heat and by extension as is Dubas.

@zeke
@Dekes For Days

Now compare dubas' failures to lou's success with the islanders.

Its amazing how many around here hate lou but adore duabs.

The results are right there. You only make yourself look foolish by denying the obvious.

 

[Garthinater]

Dubas built the best/deepest team and best farm system we've had in ages (outside of top guys like Nylander coming through).

At some point the players just have to get the f***ing job done.

Holy cope batman!

 

[superdee]

The type of hire that Dubas was as an up and comer was perfectly fine. I just don't think he's done a good job starting with the huge headstart of a stacked young team. This is a tired discussion but I believe his lack of humility really hurt him early in his tenure. He didn't know the bounds of his abilities as a negotiator and people evaluator. I know this is tough to spot for some people because he affects humility and empathy really well. I actually don't think many read his personality well because he's very good at presenting himself as a nice guy type. He's a Machiavellian climber type (Machiavellian is not necessarily bad for leadership) who is not as intellectual, progressive and analytical as he presents himself. Social skills are his biggest asset (again not necessarily a bad thing).

Wasn’t John Ferguson Jr. and up and comer? Trade a first round pick for Foligno when you could have probably got Hall and Lazar for that and a bit.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Nay.

Shanahan's done a good job of stripping it down to the bare bones and building it up. He's here for the long-term (as his contract extension suggests).

As much as I am not much of a fan of Dubas, I'd keep him around. Hopefully he is humbled by this experience and reflects on it all. He made the big three signings, he made a huge UFA splash, he does the yo-yo'ing of draft picks on draft day. Now it is time to grow some stones and make a big move to ruffle things up as the current set-up isn't working. The sign of a good GM is recognizing one's flaws/mistakes and rectifying them, as opposed to being stubborn and doubling down. Dubas is progressive and smart enough that I think (hope) he'll fall into the former.

It's easy to get rid of a management group and instill a new one. At this point though, I think continuity is valuable, both in the very near term and into the medium/long term (5+ years). So long as they recognize that something needs to be done the same way someone who would come in fresh would want to put a stamp on this team. If things stay the same and it's a matter of recycling a bunch of Thorntons, Simmonds and Bogosians into the lineup thinking that new wave will be the difference next year from this year's team, then my calls for their heads will increase as things progress this off-season and into next season.

 

[Mad hatter]

The leafs were right there around the top of the league all season.
The team’s second scoring and toughness was evident all year including the playoffs I thought.
The goaltending, except for a few blips, was above average all year and in the playoffs I thought.
There was sufficient depth at every position with the limited cap space.
Dubas also seems to be good at finding talent at the draft.
I’m not sure how we can hold Dubas responsible for the lack of production out of Matthews and Marner. If these 2 have had showed up for only two games of the seven game series we would have won.
The teams death carried us through the JT injury, which was Dubas, but the 2 biggest stars of the team did not, which isn’t on Dubas imho.

 

[superdee]

Nay.

I can see why they are in the hot seat, because the on ice product is ultimately their responsibility. But I look at the Leafs on paper, which is their job to assemble and I see a team that looks great. If Kyle Dubas's job is to put together a team of good hockey players, I like what he's done. He can't go out there on the ice and force them to start on time, or trade for a guy who will rub their backs or kick their asses when they need it. This is a good team on paper and at some point the players have to carry their own end of the bargain. I do not believe that the players did that, therefore I do not believe that it is the GM's and President's fault.

Dubas is the guy who got us Campbell. Dubas is the guy who got us Brodie and Muzzin. Dubas has been trying to fix the team's problems and doing a pretty solid job the entire way through. He created new problems with those big contracts, but don't tell me that the problem is the contracts when the actual problem is that Matthews, Marner, and Tavares (not his fault) combined for 9 total points! 1 goal from 33m in forwards is not the GM's fault.

Ultimately, I don't really care if Shanahan and Dubas are fired at this point. I'll throw Keefe in there with them too. Don't really care. If they're fired, they're fired and I hope that we don't hire somebody worse. But I think that accountability is necessary and accountability for this collapse must fall to the players. I'd choose to keep them because on the balance I like what Dubas has done and frankly I'd like him to just hulk out at this afternoon's press conference and scream, "WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FROM ME?"

They have a grand total of 6 draft picks in the next 2 years. On the other hand Montreal has 18. With flat cap and the bad contracts on injury they traded for to make cap room off the books and all UFA’s left to sign this year was there best shot at it. They only way they get Lord Stanley’s Cup if they start putting them back in beer cases.