Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[FraumBallard]

I just feel like the last thing we need is JFJ getting fired and a guy like Cliff Fletcher is brought in to clean house and clear the decks based on emotions and destroying the country club or whatever it is.

The core probably needs some major edits, probably looks like Marner headed out, probably looks like some combination of Hyman, Andersen Kerfoot and Rielly not not returning to build a critical mass of cap space and pivoting towards a new revamped core like Hamilton (UFA) and Eichel (for Marner) as an example of the scale and magnitude of changes.

But I think it has to be done by Shanahan and Dubas learning on the job as opposed to throwing away all that institutional continuity and having potentially the wrong guys come in and botch the yardsale and set us back 7 years instead of 2 or whatever it is. I'm not saying business as usual, but we can't nuke it either with no survivors. We're on a clock and there's no value in setting it back to Year 0.

I also don't want to set up some Imlach vs Sittler/McDonald or Burke vs Kaberle tension in the organization to further disable the ability of the players that are here. Tough guy reformer vs underachieving core and all the sports drama that ensues. It's just too dysfunctional and bad for business.

Sounds like you’re putting lipstick on a pig.
Shanny/Wonder Boy gotta go.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

This is the first time since Dubas was hired where I'd consider firing him if it were up to me. I don't blame him for the stars not showing up, that's not his fault IMO. But hes 100% to blame for some disastrous trades like the Foligno one. Theres no draft capital left to go out and make moves this summer. The cap is a mess. I think Dubas gets another year, but hes certainly on the hot seat along with Keefe.

 

[hotpaws]

The Leafs have been worse every year under Dubas.
He is pissing away our window and is clearly not capable of building a playoff Team.
How many more failures will it take for you to see this??
2/4/forever?
It is very clear what the problem is.
Wonder Boy.
And.
Shanahan for hiring him.
Don’t need to talk points,individual stats etc...
Nothing matters except the Stanley Cup.

the answer it seems is forever .

better the owners cut their loses and replace Shanny/Dubas/Keefe than let them completely destroy the team by short sighted moves to try to save their jobs

 

[Stephen]

The Leafs have been worse every year under Dubas.
He is pissing away our window and is clearly not capable of building a playoff Team.
How many more failures will it take for you to see this??
2/4/forever?
It is very clear what the problem is.
Wonder Boy.
And.
Shanahan for hiring him.
Don’t need to talk points,individual stats etc...
Nothing matters except the Stanley Cup.

I understand the tendency to want to take the grievance all the way to the top. I'll take it a step further and make the joke that the most satisfying thing now would be to just fold the organization, tear down the arena and start with a new expansion team in a few years.

But in reality, I don't trust the scorched earth total destruction yet before we move some of the core roster first. The tear down could be more satisfying in the short term to fire everyone tar and feather, etc. but I'm weary of the damage that could be done that sets us back even further.

 

[Atomos2]

I'd keep them if only to put the fear of god in them. Bringing in someone new just gives another longer timeline of recycling bullshit and gives them a longer window to once again f*** up like these guys have. We need more accountability, not less.

 

[centipede2233]

Both should be fired but they won’t be. Shanahan is the most culpable. He’s also been here a lot longer than dubie (7 yrs). Brian Burke didn’t get a playoff round win in 5 years as team president and was shown the door. How much more leeway does shanahan get. And what exactly in terms of education and or front office experience did he have to be team president. I think the person who keeps hiring these bozos should be fired. Just go to the root of the issue.

 

[member 298589]

I would give them another year to see how Dubas addresses coaching and Marner.

If Keefe is back with Marner, I'm on board with sending them packing. It means they don't have the stomach to make the tough decisions when it comes to their own mistakes (and not just the mistakes they inherited).

 

[4thline]

I just feel like the last thing we need is JFJ getting fired and a guy like Cliff Fletcher is brought in to clean house and clear the decks based on emotions and destroying the country club or whatever it is.

The core probably needs some major edits, probably looks like Marner headed out, probably looks like some combination of Hyman, Andersen Kerfoot and Rielly not not returning to build a critical mass of cap space and pivoting towards a new revamped core like Hamilton (UFA) and Eichel (for Marner) as an example of the scale and magnitude of changes.

But I think it has to be done by Shanahan and Dubas learning on the job as opposed to throwing away all that institutional continuity and having potentially the wrong guys come in and botch the yardsale and set us back 7 years instead of 2 or whatever it is. I'm not saying business as usual, but we can't nuke it either with no survivors. We're on a clock and there's no value in setting it back to Year 0.

I also don't want to set up some Imlach vs Sittler/McDonald or Burke vs Kaberle tension in the organization to further disable the ability of the players that are here. Tough guy reformer vs underachieving core and all the sports drama that ensues. It's just too dysfunctional and bad for business.

You're killing it in this thread. Words right out of my mouth. A reactionary house cleaning followed by a reactionary mandate is terrifying.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I don't think they should be fired ...yet. But at the same time there are a lot of disturbing things that I saw and heard from Keefe that make me really wonder about the overall philosophy of building this team. When Keefe was asked about the hitting...he said that it did not affect their play...and when we did hit them...we played very poorly in his eyes. That to me sounds like someone trying to justify the team they have. He said this before game 6 I believe and if that is the message coming from him and management in general..that is really scary.

We don't want knuckle draggers...but we also don't want useless players like Simmonds either. He couldn't complete a pass or skate or score. How that guy scored over 30 multiple times in his career is quite astonishing to me. The problem that I see is they look at the analytics and see that Engvall gives them a 5-7% better xGF or xGA and then make their minds up that he is better than another similar player that plays a physical game and can't be intimidated. They won't admit that there is a difference in play between reg. season and playoffs because they don't want to admit they were wrong about the market inefficiency with smaller skilled players. Dubas thought he found a gold mine when the Dennis Malgin's of the world were not highly sought after...well...he was not sought after because you don't win with tiny skilled players in the post season. He traded Mason Marchment whom he groomed for several years for a midget that plays in the swiss league...let that sink in.

Tampa Bay had the triplets...all smaller skilled guys that put up points..did they win with them? Nope..they didn't win the cup until they added Patrick Maroon and several hard ass players. Why our management can't see what Tampa had to live through and figure out is beyond me. Tampa had more skill than us and still couldn't do shit until they added some different types of players. We should be paying attention.

 

[yubbers]

Should have been fired after we missed the playoffs last year.

 

[Jozay]

Probably fire Shanahan and let the new president determine what to do with Dubas.

Shanahan did a good job getting this team to at least be good in the regular season. May need someone else to help the org take the next step.

 

[Donnie740]

The Leafs have been worse every year under Dubas.
He is pissing away our window and is clearly not capable of building a playoff Team.
How many more failures will it take for you to see this??
2/4/forever?
It is very clear what the problem is.
Wonder Boy.
And.
Shanahan for hiring him.
Don’t need to talk points,individual stats etc...
Nothing matters except the Stanley Cup.

His buddy Keefe is just as useless. Both need to be fired before this franchise can be a legit championship team.

 

[bodechek]

I would not fire Shanahan, we are better of now than we were during the JFJ days. But Dubas should be on a very short leash. These players are now grown up and don't need to be coddled or protected by fan anger or media questions. But that is what Dubas will do in his season ending press conference. This team absolutely has NO heart in getting the job done. 5 years and still the same result by letting these selfish players have their way. It's time to make tough and not popular choices

 

[CapspaceKiller]

They'll get one more year from ownership to revamp their strategy. Which I don't think is particularly unreasonable.

Major changes to the org will still be happening in some form or the other this off-season.

And if they can't get the job done next post season I suspect they'll be removed then.

Exactly, the players Dubas acquired over the last year did their job. Its time to break up the big 4 and go from there, but Dubas and Shanahan should be on a super short leash. This is it, the final year.

 

[Dave92]

Fire Shanny for sure, I'd let Dubas' stay if he intended on making some changes.

 

[yubbers]

I told you Dubas would waste our AM years. Seems like half of y'all want to go the distance

What's the definition of insanity again?

 

[PromisedLand]

I understand the tendency to want to take the grievance all the way to the top. I'll take it a step further and make the joke that the most satisfying thing now would be to just fold the organization, tear down the arena and start with a new expansion team in a few years.

But in reality, I don't trust the scorched earth total destruction yet before we move some of the core roster first. The tear down could be more satisfying in the short term to fire everyone tar and feather, etc. but I'm weary of the damage that could be done that sets us back even further.

Your points in this thread although valid assumes that (I think):

• Matthews UFA in 3 yrs will re-sign
• Nylander UFA in 3 yrs will re-sign
• Tavares' contract is going to age very well and will not be an albatross
• Marner's contact is easy to deal
• Rielly is easy to replace
• Hyman is easy to replace

If we do a re-tool of 2 yrs I assume chances of making the playoffs in those 2 yrs in a very competitive atlantic division would be rare. And even if Leafs did make the playoffs they will end up meeting with either Tampa/Florida/Boston and get their ass handed to them.

Then 1 more yr of Matthews/Nylander assuming they both want to re-sign. AND we really do not have a solid goalie either (campbell is good but unproven IMO - North division offense was a JOKE)

If the management does want to go that route I would prefer they announce it so that I don't have to invest a lot of my time in this team.

I am positive that the scars given by Dubas to this franchise are not going to be easily healed.

- not a lot of draft picks in the system who can fill quality depth for cheap on ELCs
- not a lot draft picks to even draft

Dubas traded for Foligno (1st) + 2021 4th to CBJ + 2022 4th to sharks to retain salary, Nash (7th that now turns to 6th), Hutton (5th), Rittich (3rd),


Next 2 drafts below is what we have:

2021: 2nd, 5th, 6th,
2022: 1st, 2nd, 7th

If you use these 2 years to "re-tool" we don't even have enough draft picks to draft, meanwhile in a year both Matthews/Nylander are UFAs

A competent GM doesn't F up so BIG.

 

[PromisedLand]

I may get there, but I wouldn't fire at this point.

The first two points can easily be traded off of eachother to resolve that issue.

You have to account for the fact that Hyman is a UFA now, Dermott is an RFA, they will require raises. If you let Hyman walk thats a quality player gone.

Rielly will be a UFA next year, you let him walk don't have anyone in the system to replace Rielly. You don't fill top pairing Ds with UFAs IMO.

This team has done nothing and there is no reason for Rielly, Hyman to take any discount given the way 11 million dollar club has performed and has gotten paid.

I don't even know who in their right mind is going to take Marner's contract. May be Ottawa? But I doubt they trade Tkachuck back. I doubt DJ Smith even advocates for having marner on his team given the way Ottawa plays. Hard skating, hard forecheck absolutely flybys

 

[Gallagbi]

You have to account for the fact that Hyman is a UFA now, Dermott is an RFA, they will require raises. If you let Hyman walk thats a quality player gone.

Rielly will be a UFA next year, you let him walk don't have anyone in the system to replace Rielly. You don't fill top pairing Ds with UFAs IMO.

This team has done nothing and there is no reason for Rielly, Hyman to take any discount given the way 11 million dollar club has performed and has gotten paid.

I don't even know who in their right mind is going to take Marner's contract. May be Ottawa? But I doubt they trade Tkachuck back. I doubt DJ Smith even advocates for having marner on his team given the way Ottawa plays. Hard skating, hard forecheck absolutely flybys

Marner's owed pennies on the dollar for his deal, approx $25m over the next 4 years. That's extremely attractive to many teams, and half the league is looking for scoring help. A top 5 scorer is attractive, especially with the dollars owed.

Rielly isn't up for re-signing this year, so not to worry there and Hyman isn't coming off a stellar season himself. With my original point being a trade for Marner, there's EASILY enough money for those issues.

It would be tough for me to care less about re-signing Dermott and I don't see a guy losing his 6th D spot being up for big money. We also found a better D in Bogo for $1M this year and don't suffer much going with a safer defensive option, say like a Ben Hutton. Dermott is welcome back on a cheap deal, but I'm not dying to re-sign

 

[PromisedLand]

Marner's owed pennies on the dollar for his deal, approx $25m over the next 4 years. That's extremely attractive to many teams, and half the league is looking for scoring help. A top 5 scorer is attractive, especially with the dollars owed.

Rielly isn't up for re-signing this year, so not to worry there and Hyman isn't coming off a stellar season himself. With my original point being a trade for Marner, there's EASILY enough money for those issues.

It would be tough for me to care less about re-signing Dermott and I don't see a guy losing his 6th D spot being up for big money. We also found a better D in Bogo for $1M this year and don't suffer much going with a safer defensive option, say like a Ben Hutton. Dermott is welcome back on a cheap deal, but I'm not dying to re-sign

Although Marner is owed around 7million a year on average for the next 4 years his cap hit is still going to be around 10.9 AAV. The teams looking to add scoring would either be teams looking to contend (i.e. probably already strapped for cap) or teams that just do not have any offensive players.

1) contending teams will not be able to fit marner's aav
and
2) teams that can fit marner's aav are not going to want to pay prime assets if they want marner that is

This team still requires other pieces which will not be easy to fit under the cap.

If I am not mistaken Leafs are the only team with 3 players having AAV of 10M and above. Even if Marner is dealt, Leafs are still going to be the only team in the League with 2 players making AAV of 10M and above

The cap gymnastics that were played this year with Keefe saying they cannot easily put players from taxi squad into the playing roster because of cap problems etc....

All this is on dubas

 

[Gallagbi]

Although Marner is owed around 7million a year on average for the next 4 years his cap hit is still going to be around 10.9 AAV. The teams looking to add scoring would either be teams looking to contend (i.e. probably already strapped for cap) or teams that just do not have any offensive players.

1) contending teams will not be able to fit marner's aav
and
2) teams that can fit marner's aav are not going to want to pay prime assets if they want marner that is

This team still requires other pieces which will not be easy to fit under the cap.

If I am not mistaken Leafs are the only team with 3 players having AAV of 10M and above. Even if Marner is dealt, Leafs are still going to be the only team in the League with 2 players making AAV of 10M and above

The cap gymnastics that were played this year with Keefe saying they cannot easily put players from taxi squad into the playing roster because of cap problems etc....

All this is on dubas

You're insane if you don't think there's a market for a 90+ scorer owed ~6m/yr during a global pandemic in a league always looking for scoring.

This team will always push itself to the cap, that's not new. They won't be purposely leaving space open for some time now, nor should we want them to.

The goal should be moveable deals if the flexibility is needed and we have that.

If they want space they could go out tomorrow and move Nylander, Matthews, Marner and have no issues doing it

 

[Mess]

I think we have to wait on some word from MLSE after another lost and disappointing season.

MLSE BOD has to answer to share/stock holders and investors and 5 straight round #1 losses they must be getting impatient, so when Shanny and Dubas are before the board and answering this year the questioning is going to be tougher.

I think this new Era of HockeyPuck analytics and team building that was once sold as the future to ownership is going up in smoke based on how poorly the results have been.

The noose around Shanny and Dubas is certainly tightening, because after all its a results oriented business and the 3 years under Dubas has seen diminishing returns with each passing year ending more disappointing then the previous one.

 

[Gallagbi]

I think we have to wait on some word from MLSE after another lost and disappointing season.

MLSE BOD has to answer to share/stock holders and investors and 5 straight round #1 losses they must be getting impatient, so when Shanny and Dubas are before the board and answering this year the question is going to be tougher.

I think this new Era of HockeyPuck analytics and team building that was once sold as the future to ownership is going up in smoke based on how poorly the results have been.

The noose around Shanny and Dubas is certainly tightening, because after all its a results oriented business and the 3 years under Dubas has seen diminishing returns with each passing year ending more disappointing then the previous one.

What's the alternative to hockey puck out of curiosity?

 

[hfman]

Shanahan has been here 7 years

no playoff victories in all that time

just collapses


this guy is a cat with 9 lives

 

[Polaris1010]

This is the first time since Dubas was hired where I'd consider firing him if it were up to me. I don't blame him for the stars not showing up, that's not his fault IMO. But hes 100% to blame for some disastrous trades like the Foligno one. Theres no draft capital left to go out and make moves this summer. The cap is a mess. I think Dubas gets another year, but hes certainly on the hot seat along with Keefe.

What got Babcock fired was he would not play Marner and Matthews together.

Damn, was Babcock ever right about that.

Babcock wanted to win, and he did things that he believed would win.

The current organization seem clueless.