Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[Bronxxx]

Shanahan does not bleed blue. Never should have been hired!

 

[hotpaws]

I understand the tendency to want to take the grievance all the way to the top. I'll take it a step further and make the joke that the most satisfying thing now would be to just fold the organization, tear down the arena and start with a new expansion team in a few years.

But in reality, I don't trust the scorched earth total destruction yet before we move some of the core roster first. The tear down could be more satisfying in the short term to fire everyone tar and feather, etc. but I'm weary of the damage that could be done that sets us back even further.

Scorched earth would be to trade core pieces instead of firing the coach/mgmt since it’s a hell of a lot easier to replace them than it is to replace high end young players .

 

[justashadowof]

Adios. Even if you want to rationalize away the decisions that worked out poorly, the fact remains that the results aren't there. Something is being squandered here. These special windows of contention for teams pass by in a flash. You don't keep your job in a competitive industry like this because you've had hard luck. It's a results based industry and there are plenty of hockey people qualified to give it a go in your place.

 

[justashadowof]

Never forget this year old article:

NHL Agent Poll: Maple Leafs’ Kyle Dubas Deemed Most Generous GM

 

[Blanche Blanche]

I just feel like the last thing we need is JFJ getting fired and a guy like Cliff Fletcher is brought in to clean house and clear the decks based on emotions and destroying the country club or whatever it is.

The core probably needs some major edits, probably looks like Marner headed out, probably looks like some combination of Hyman, Andersen Kerfoot and Rielly not not returning to build a critical mass of cap space and pivoting towards a new revamped core like Hamilton (UFA) and Eichel (for Marner) as an example of the scale and magnitude of changes.

But I think it has to be done by Shanahan and Dubas learning on the job as opposed to throwing away all that institutional continuity and having potentially the wrong guys come in and botch the yardsale and set us back 7 years instead of 2 or whatever it is. I'm not saying business as usual, but we can't nuke it either with no survivors. We're on a clock and there's no value in setting it back to Year 0.

I also don't want to set up some Imlach vs Sittler/McDonald or Burke vs Kaberle tension in the organization to further disable the ability of the players that are here. Tough guy reformer vs underachieving core and all the sports drama that ensues. It's just too dysfunctional and bad for business.

this guy makes sense

 

[Man Bear Pig]

What got Babcock fired was he would not play Marner and Matthews together.

Damn, was Babcock ever right about that.

Babcock wanted to win, and he did things that he believed would win.

The current organization seem clueless.

Are people suddenly forgetting how much of a nutjob Babcock is?

 

[Prominence]

Are people suddenly forgetting how much of a nutjob Babcock is?

For example,
- the team collapsed before he got fired
- got a young rookie to make a list of players ranked from most effort to least and showed said list to the bottom rankers
- refused to play spezza in the season-opener against senators
- emotionally abused a fragile franzen
- prevented modano from playing in his 1500th game

 

[Super Mega]

I think Dubas has another year to make some drastic changes, if he doesn't and they either miss or whiff again in the playoffs he's done and so is Keefe

Shanahan is more complex I think not sure what his shelf life even is

 

[Puckstuff]

Mats Sundin for GM

 

[TheGoldenJet]

The Leafs have been worse every year under Dubas.
He is pissing away our window and is clearly not capable of building a playoff Team.

This is essentially correct. The Dubasites won’t want to hear it though.

Fire Dubas.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think Dubas has another year to make some drastic changes, if he doesn't and they either miss or whiff again in the playoffs he's done and so is Keefe

Shanahan is more complex I think not sure what his shelf life even is

Dubas got another year bc he still got the I can trade the core card and Shanny will not fire Dubas bc that will be his last bullet to save his job.
If Shanny fires Dubas this summer, if the Leafs can’t advance again, then it is times up for Shanny.

 

[Gabriel426]

Mats Sundin for GM

I think he should be the Coach and just remind the boys not to piss away opportunities and being a Leafs is special.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

For example,
- the team collapsed before he got fired
- got a young rookie to make a list of players ranked from most effort to least and showed said list to the bottom rankers
- refused to play spezza in the season-opener against senators
- emotionally abused a fragile franzen
- prevented modano from playing in his 1500th game

And that's just the stuff we know about publicly. Babcock with a degree in sports psychology is a chimp with a machine gun.

 

[killer1980]

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that one has to look at how Bell and Rogers run their internet, mobility and media businesses. Sure, they make lots of money but does the public consider them successful operations? I think not. Why would anyone expect anything more in the way they run their hockey business. Rogers ruined HNIC. To think they could do better running a hockey club would be hard to imagine. Nothing unexpected happening here. My sympathies lay with the fans who have had to endure all this nonsense for so many years. It's all a good old boys club. None of the hockey management team is going anywhere except all out to a nice restaurant for lunch.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Dubas built the best/deepest team and best farm system we've had in ages (outside of top guys like Nylander coming through).

At some point the players just have to get the f***ing job done.

 

[killer1980]

If these two are gone the next management has an excuse for the next five years for not winning : "we inherited a mess".

So, is it best to let these two jokers wallow in the mess they created? The faster these guys are gone the sooner we can try it all over again. There isn't one winner on this team, on or off the ice.

 

[killer1980]

Dubas built the best/deepest team and best farm system we've had in ages.

Wow, I didn't know that. Guess that's the reason I'll be watching the Jets/Canadiens game tonight.

 

[nuck]

It feels too James Dolan-dysfunctional to pull the plug on what is a work in progress at the roster level. The idea of cleaning house to bring in another tough talking president, another GM and so many big contracts with term on the books reeks of impatience and instability. Didn't like Dubas' early work and I don't like his cap management or some of his draft classes but I think there's enough adaptation going on from last offseason to show he can retool and build a roster in a creative way.

I don't think a change in GM or even Pres necessarily means pulling the plug on the roster. They would need to be able to work with what is here and any major changes are not likely to be much different than what Shanny might expect KD to do this summer. Somebody to come in and tell MLSE what they can do to win primarily with the assets they have. How they will do a better job than their predecessors, not reinventing too much. Also a Shanny replacement need not be as disruptive as a change in GM since the infrastructure in place isn't a big problem, just the GM and coach replacement.

I would be would be happy to see Shanny out the door as most of the mistakes Dubas has ever made would have been with his approval and his own inexperience probably led to allowing some questionable Dubas moves rather than providing the rookie GM with guidance a veteran executive might have offered. I would be surprised if he was axed though, unless he spent a ton of personal capital staying the current course after the play-ins. Failing that, changing the GM should be the most that might happen.

As far as Dubas the huge contracts he handed out are likely to be water under the bridge unless the Board sees a fundamental flaw in the top heavy lineup and have run out of patience. We don't know what dialogue may have taken place even last summer, as he could have been on thin ice going into the playoffs or in good shape. I agree he has come a long way from his early all dangle lineups and his lineup construction with the flat cap seemed solid. I would be surprised if he didn't have to let Keefe go as the fail comes down to either his lineup or the coaches execution. We can complain all we want about Marner and Matthews not bringing their A game but the coach has to win with the lineup the GM has given him. Dubas may put himself at risk if he doesn't come forward with an action plan the Board agrees with but we can't predict that will be the case. This assumes the Shanahan is still solidly in his corner as BS has his own future to look out for.

 

[hamzarocks]

Dubas built the best/deepest team and best farm system we've had in ages (outside of top guys like Nylander coming through).

At some point, the players just have to get the f***ing job done.

The team obviously was not deep if it fell to the 18th place team in the NHL

We had Holl playing way too high in the lineup, didn't have anyone to come in once Muzzin got hurt

Had Engvall, Simmonds, Joe, Mikheyev playing regularly way too much in roles that were above their abilities.

The farm system we have is nothing special and hasn't paid any dividends in our current contention years. Sandin is not ready to be a bottom pairing defender in his D+3, Lilijgren was not ready to be a bottom pairing defender in his D+4.

Amirov is a wildcard and at least 1 more year away from being an NHLer though more likely two years. The rest of the guys are B pieces which are 2+ years out from NHL roles.

Our prospects will only become good NHLers near the end of the AM/MM(if he's still around), WN contracts and around the time Muzzin, Brodie, JT are all beginning to fall off.

We don't have a proper plan for when we are supposed to be contending. Our stars are not signed long enough at good hits to be able to wait out for help to come from guys like Hirvonen, Hallinder, Abramov, etc.

People are bending over backward to give any excuse they can find for excusing Dubas. It's been 3 years now since he's come and the results have been gross. He's failed at progressing the team and his roster has proven to be unable to win come Spring.

Dubas 3 year tenure right now sits at C, which is salvaged only due to his drafting while being a few years away from our current window was good.

In 2018, once we signed JT if we were told that we would lose 3 straight 1st round series, each to a team worse than us who we should have beaten, we would have laughed. People were going on about us being the Blackhawks then. The Dubas era has been a total failure so far. Whether he gets one more shot at it or not is MLSE's decision, but he is and should be on extremely thin ice with one more failure ending his NHL career

 

[keonsbitterness]

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that one has to look at how Bell and Rogers run their internet, mobility and media businesses. Sure, they make lots of money but does the public consider them successful operations? I think not. Why would anyone expect anything more in the way they run their hockey business. Rogers ruined HNIC. To think they could do better running a hockey club would be hard to imagine. Nothing unexpected happening here. My sympathies lay with the fans who have had to endure all this nonsense for so many years. It's all a good old boys club. None of the hockey management team is going anywhere except all out to a nice restaurant for lunch.

How exactly are Bell and Rogers not successful at their core businesses?

 

[killer1980]

I was talking about consumers, not the shareholders. The cell service goes down a lot and the internet is intermittent and rarely do they send out the mbs that is paid for. But, the shareholders are happy, as are the shareholders of MLSE

 

[keonsbitterness]

My internet works great.

 

[Donnie740]

For example,
- the team collapsed before he got fired
- got a young rookie to make a list of players ranked from most effort to least and showed said list to the bottom rankers
- refused to play spezza in the season-opener against senators
- emotionally abused a fragile franzen
- prevented modano from playing in his 1500th game

Don't forget about what he did to Chris Chelios and Mike Commodore.

 

[Donnie740]

The Dubas era has been a total failure so far. Whether he gets one more shot at it or not is MLSE's decision, but he is and should be on extremely thin ice with one more failure ending his NHL career

Dubas is the new Gord Stellick - - and just like Stellick, his time with the Leafs will be his first and last NHL GM job.

In a few years Dubas will be on the FAN590 hosting the Leafs post game call in show.

 

[Nylanderthal]

The natural order of things would be to have management shake up the core in a significant, but not earth shattering manner. If Dubas and shanahan refuse to do the hard work and are willing to live and die with this group as is, then sweep the whole lot of them out. Up until now I’ve pretty much agreed or understood every move they made save a few that I know I’m not educated enough on to take a hard line stance.
I am educated enough on this team that as of now, my comfort level with management is no longer is of the “full trust” variety and now is strictly tied to how they handle this mess they’ve gotten themselves into with the team as is.