Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[Dough72]

it is still flabbergasting they went with a mystery-box for gm. Of all the times to be different for the sake of being different, the Leafs choose the era with the most young talent in Leafs history. And of course their mystery-box manages to screw it up spectacularly.

 

[forecheck]

If the Leafs had an actual Individual owner and not a Board looking over the operation , then these two would be shown the door very quickly .

Continued failure in playoffs ( when they actually make the playoffs ) , wasted draft picks, and over paying for players making a mess of the cap ; are all reasons to move on from these two.

 

[cannucky]

Add they lack the strength of character to admit their failure and resign .

 

[ottomaddox]

Fire Shanny/Dubas is now taking over the hf fanbase.

Wow.

All this team needed to do was win 1 playoff series and it might have kept the public from having a meltdown/keep the dogs at bay. Instead they couldn't beat an underdog after being up 3-1 in the series.

What a disgrace...

 

[All Mod Cons]

I'd give Dubas one more year. And when he f***s up, I'd give Dubas one more year, and so on and so on.

All the one more year crowd after Columbus and wanting yet another year of this. It's so painful.

 

[17 Clark]

I'd give Dubas one more year. And when he f***s up, I'd give Dubas one more year, and so on and so on.

All the one more year crowd after Columbus and wanting yet another year of this. It's so painful.

You would him to create more damage What’s the definition of stupid doing the same thing over repetitively and coming up with the same result

 

[ottomaddox]

Shanny is now 7 years into this. 7 years! How much time does he get? 17? Does he even get 10?

Eventually someone above Shanny will start to realize that a pro sports organization prides itself in winning championships. The same rules applied to The Raptors, and TFC.
THEN THEN THEN all they have to do is consider all the millions wasted.

Toronto are not close to competing for any championships. The reality will hit so hard next season when they face Tampa, Boston, Florida, Ottawa, etc.

Garbage!

 

[Dough72]

Dubas built the best/deepest team and best farm system we've had in ages

he inherited all his stars though. And can thank the city of Toronto for signing Jon Tavares.

 

[Amadeus]

it is still flabbergasting they went with a mystery-box for gm. Of all the times to be different for the sake of being different, the Leafs choose the era with the most young talent in Leafs history. And of course their mystery-box manages to screw it up spectacularly.

He's a very good GM though. I'm angry but he's good. Keefe I'm not sure about.

 

[Metroid]

One side of me says f-it, fire everyone and give a fresh start just for the excitement and entertainment value of it, but the other side is saying, let's see how Dubas and co respond to this b.s
As much as people want Dubas' Keefe gone, I feel like they are on a short leash already and this off season will be their last unless we go fa into pkayoffs

 

[justashadowof]

Brendan Shanahan from 2015 about the 2014-15 team that imploded (Opinion | Maple Leafs president Brendan Shanahan on his Shana-plan, in his own words):

ON THE TEAMS LEADERSHIP GROUP
"They know it, we know it, the job didn't get done. They are professionals. I'm not in here to pile on top of them. It's been a difficult season for them. But they also understand that yesterday was just the beginning. There will be some changes. We have some pieces here. This is not a situation where we don't have anything to build from. They recognize it. They've been around. They understand there are going to be changes made in that regard as well."

WHY DIDN'T YOU FIRE EVERONE A YEAR AGO?
"Coming in here last year and making the kind of changes I made yesterday would have been a guess for me. I know that people are frustrated and wanted to fast forward this thing as much as possible. There are millions of blueprints in this city but we can only use mine while I’m here as president.
I had to come in here and see some things for myself. I made some changes. I tried to support some people and give them an opportunity to succeed. We made a change around the halfway point of the year and we asked the players to show us what they had. We went out and signed some players that we thought would give us the opportunity to be better. It didn’t work out.
You’d like to go back in time and know some of these things you know one year later, but it simply would have been a guess. It’s not something I would have been willing to do."

MORE CHARACTER NEEDED ON ICE
"I would never attribute any of the places I’ve been or any of the great teams I’ve seen character attributed to one single person. It has to come from a group. This isn’t to single one guy out. It’s not good. They understand that. I haven’t been satisfied it. They will have to look in the mirror and probably agree that as a group it didn’t get done. When you do look at championship teams, it really is about a group effort when it comes to leadership."

 

[Stephen]

I don't think a change in GM or even Pres necessarily means pulling the plug on the roster. They would need to be able to work with what is here and any major changes are not likely to be much different than what Shanny might expect KD to do this summer. Somebody to come in and tell MLSE what they can do to win primarily with the assets they have. How they will do a better job than their predecessors, not reinventing too much. Also a Shanny replacement need not be as disruptive as a change in GM since the infrastructure in place isn't a big problem, just the GM and coach replacement.

I would be would be happy to see Shanny out the door as most of the mistakes Dubas has ever made would have been with his approval and his own inexperience probably led to allowing some questionable Dubas moves rather than providing the rookie GM with guidance a veteran executive might have offered. I would be surprised if he was axed though, unless he spent a ton of personal capital staying the current course after the play-ins. Failing that, changing the GM should be the most that might happen.

As far as Dubas the huge contracts he handed out are likely to be water under the bridge unless the Board sees a fundamental flaw in the top heavy lineup and have run out of patience. We don't know what dialogue may have taken place even last summer, as he could have been on thin ice going into the playoffs or in good shape. I agree he has come a long way from his early all dangle lineups and his lineup construction with the flat cap seemed solid. I would be surprised if he didn't have to let Keefe go as the fail comes down to either his lineup or the coaches execution. We can complain all we want about Marner and Matthews not bringing their A game but the coach has to win with the lineup the GM has given him. Dubas may put himself at risk if he doesn't come forward with an action plan the Board agrees with but we can't predict that will be the case. This assumes the Shanahan is still solidly in his corner as BS has his own future to look out for.

I dunno, I don’t think making crazy organization moves at the top in hopes of shocking the millionaire kids into reality is really the way to go. Removing Shanahan and or Dubas doesn’t lift cap restrictions either. Move the players you don’t like and live to fight another year.

 

[justashadowof]

I dunno, I don’t think making crazy organization moves at the top in hopes of shocking the millionaire kids into reality is really the way to go. Removing Shanahan and or Dubas doesn’t lift cap restrictions either. Move the players you don’t like and live to fight another year.

Nice modifier of "crazy" on a perfectly reasonable and historical practise of making major changes when a competitive business with potential stagnates or regresses. There's nothing crazy about it. Making no changes, i.e. doing the same thing over and over again, is what I believe Einstein defined as crazy.

 

[Stephen]

Nice modifier of "crazy" on a perfectly reasonable and historical practise of making major changes when a competitive business with potential stagnates or regresses. There's nothing crazy about it. Making no changes, i.e. doing the same thing over and over again, is what I believe Einstein defined as crazy.

I broadly like Shanahan’s work at his executive level and thought Dubas made a lot of errors in cap allocation and I dislike his drafts every year but thought he made a lot of the right moves this season to give the team a chance to win. They didn’t do it...

If you look at a lot of the stable franchises in the NHL their management team stay intact through good and lean years and generally have a lot of leeway to work through issues.

If you fire everyone at the top you’re not bringing in new executives whose jobs will be to fine tune the program. They won’t know the issues in the room and behind the scenes stuff and will take time to work through. You’re going to be hiring guys whose mandate will be to throw the baby out with the bath water to placate fan anger - and that’s where mistakes will happen.

 

[Trapper]

At the very least, (and I don’t want this) but at the very least, if Dubas stays, I want him to acknowledge that the core is an issue (in whatever diplomatic terms you like) and that this is the final countdown to major change.

If he stays. No more process, learning, it’s tough, additional support vets, nothing.

Do or die core.

 

[justashadowof]

I broadly like Shanahan’s work at his executive level and thought Dubas made a lot of errors in cap allocation and I dislike his drafts every year but thought he made a lot of the right moves this season to give the team a chance to win. They didn’t do it...

I agree with this but Dubas' errors from previous seasons carried forward to this season. I believe Dubas lit a fire of entitlement and lethargy that continues to smoulder in the team's young stars. This team needs a major shakeup. This isn't a team that didn't quite have it to take it to the Cup Finals, this is a team that can't finish off a bad playoff opponent.

If you look at a lot of the stable franchises in the NHL their management team stay intact through good and lean years and generally have a lot of leeway to work through issues.

David Poile didn't stay as the Capitals' GM under Ovechkin. The Penguins' GM hasn't been the same man under Crosby and Malkin.

 

[Stephen]

I agree with this but Dubas' errors from previous seasons carried forward to this season. I believe Dubas lit a fire of entitlement and lethargy that continues to smoulder in the team's young stars. This team needs a major shakeup. This isn't a team that didn't quite have it to take it to the Cup Finals, this is a team that can't finish off a bad playoff opponent.



David Poile didn't stay as the Capitals' GM under Ovechkin. The Penguins' GM hasn't been the same man under Crosby and Malkin.

David Poile has been GM of the Nashville Predators since 1998.

Doug Wilson started in San Jose in the early 2000s.

George McPhee was GM in Washington for over a dozen years before moving onto Vegas.

 

[Superstar]

At the very least, (and I don’t want this) but at the very least, if Dubas stays, I want him to acknowledge that the core is an issue (in whatever diplomatic terms you like) and that this is the final countdown to major change.

If he stays. No more process, learning, it’s tough, additional support vets, nothing.

Do or die core.

Dubas: Mitch is a great guy, he does great community work...

And Dubas said those words after Marner admittedly said he wasn't engaged to start the series against Columbus, after receiving his hefty payout (around CAD $20 million) from the first year of his new contract. He paid the guy that much and he still made excuses for him. I seriously hope I don't hear anything like that again in this year's presser.

 

[justashadowof]

David Poile has been GM of the Nashville Predators since 1998.

Doug Wilson started in San Jose in the early 2000s.

George McPhee was GM in Washington for over a dozen years before moving onto Vegas.

I meant McPhee not Poile. My point isn't changed.

What did Doug Wilson's stability bring to San Jose?

 

[sxvnert]

At the very least, (and I don’t want this) but at the very least, if Dubas stays, I want him to acknowledge that the core is an issue (in whatever diplomatic terms you like) and that this is the final countdown to major change.

If he stays. No more process, learning, it’s tough, additional support vets, nothing.

Do or die core.

He wont. Dubas thinks he smarter than everyone in the room and the hard cap doesn't apply to toronto.

 

[justashadowof]

Mats Sundin for GM

Gm? Hardly. President? They could do much worse.

 

[kevsh]

I can't justify firing a GM for overpaying his young stars and bringing in a UFA @ 11M a few years ago. And it's not like Nylander, Matthews, Tavares or Marner have been terrible, they just collectively haven't gotten it done in the playoffs.

This trade deadline was a disaster but almost universally analysts and fans felt this was the year to go all-in, clearly do did the Leafs, so Dubas pretty much did.

After losing in the play-in round last year, Dubas saw his approach needed adjustments and he made them. He brought in toughness, leadership and a very solid signing in Brodie as well as doing a solid job managing a sliver of cap space in the off-season and during the season.

A GM can't tie up his players' skates or set games strategies, he just provides the pieces and the coach and team have to deliver. To put it mildly, they did not.

As for what's next, I said previously, if Dubas internally says he believes in this core and is adamant they stick with them, then he should be fired. The salary cap isn't the problem, depth isn't the problem, the blueline or goaltending isn't the problem, the core is. There really isn't much of a debate over that among us, but it's only what MSLE, Shanahan and Dubas thinks that matters.

Unfortunately, I don't believe for a moment Dubas will do anything drastic like trade Marner or Reilly, in which case the question posed by this thread is likely going to be the same next April.

 

[ottomaddox]

I broadly like Shanahan’s work at his executive level and thought Dubas made a lot of errors in cap allocation and I dislike his drafts every year but thought he made a lot of the right moves this season to give the team a chance to win. They didn’t do it...

If you look at a lot of the stable franchises in the NHL their management team stay intact through good and lean years and generally have a lot of leeway to work through issues.

If you fire everyone at the top you’re not bringing in new executives whose jobs will be to fine tune the program. They won’t know the issues in the room and behind the scenes stuff and will take time to work through. You’re going to be hiring guys whose mandate will be to throw the baby out with the bath water to placate fan anger - and that’s where mistakes will happen.

I don't disagree, but it's hard to see through the mud.

When Shanny was hired Nonis remained the GM. Then Lou was brought in to manage the team and make it stable. The management team then consisted of:

Shanny Prez
Lou GM
Hunter AGM
Dubas AGM

Now we are left with Shanny Prez and Dubas GM.

The overlap and changes doesn't exactly match the "bathwater" scenario, but Shanny is the only constant.

I don't know if you can say that "bathwater" is how we got here.

 

[justashadowof]

it is still flabbergasting they went with a mystery-box for gm. Of all the times to be different for the sake of being different, the Leafs choose the era with the most young talent in Leafs history. And of course their mystery-box manages to screw it up spectacularly.

The type of hire that Dubas was as an up and comer was perfectly fine. I just don't think he's done a good job starting with the huge headstart of a stacked young team. This is a tired discussion but I believe his lack of humility really hurt him early in his tenure. He didn't know the bounds of his abilities as a negotiator and people evaluator. I know this is tough to spot for some people because he affects humility and empathy really well. I actually don't think many read his personality well because he's very good at presenting himself as a nice guy type. He's a Machiavellian climber type (Machiavellian is not necessarily bad for leadership) who is not as intellectual, progressive and analytical as he presents himself. Social skills are his biggest asset (again not necessarily a bad thing).

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Never forget this year old article:

NHL Agent Poll: Maple Leafs’ Kyle Dubas Deemed Most Generous GM

I'm not sure we had the guy to negotiate in the situation we had with the big three needing payday type contracts. I think you need a harder (hard ball) type of person to do those negotiations - an unfortunate (in some ways) reality I think.

Then, even though many/most loved bringing in Tavares, was he the piece that was most needed, especially if your committing another $11 m to the cap for a long term? Or, would a defender have been a better acquisition plus leaving a little wiggle room on the cap?