Confirmed Signing with Link: [DET] D Moritz Seider re-signs with the Red Wings (7 years, $8.55M AAV)

[RedHawkDown]

He had less EV points than provorov did in his first 3 years.

You tried to make the claim that seider was so much better because he had higher overall point totals "without PP1 time". It was simply a false claim

Seider had LESS EV production, and his points gap was there because he had nearly 70% more time on the power play than Provorov.

Not sure why you're ignoring this past year. He didn't play PP1 all year. I get that Provorov still plays less on the PP than him, but it's a fact that he had no PP1 time this year.

 

[dgibb10]

Not sure why you're ignoring this past year. He didn't play PP1 all year. I get that Provorov still plays less on the PP than him, but it's a fact that he had no PP1 time this year.

Because you made an incredibly disingenuous claim based on 3 years.

And Seider still was 28th in PP time last year (more than Morgan Reilly for example).

 

[RedHawkDown]

Because you made an incredibly disingenuous claim based on 3 years.

And Seider still was 28th in PP time last year (more than Morgan Reilly for example).

I made 0 claims about his overall PP time. I just said he didn't play PP1 time. And I stand corrected about his rookie year, but I'm right about this past year. You're really upset on a minor detail.

I'll bet my account Seider will be 10x the player Provorov is for his entire career. If he doesn't put up at least 55 points this year with PP1 time and barring major injury, I'll come back here and roast myself.

 

[dgibb10]

I made 0 claims about his overall PP time. I just said he didn't play PP1 time. And I stand corrected about his rookie year, but I'm right about this past year. You're really upset on a minor detail.

I'll bet my account Seider will be 10x the player Provorov is for his entire career. If he doesn't put up at least 55 points this year with PP1 time and barring major injury, I'll come back here and roast myself.

Except he spent 2 years playing PP1. And you used all 3 years in your point totals.

It's a pretty major detail.

You tried to imply that seider was held back by a lack of PP opportunity compared to provorov. When the opposite was true.

Provorov had more EV points. Seider bridged the gap because he spent 2 years getting PP1 time when provorov didn't.

Seider got 2 years with PP1 time. He had 50 and 42 points with it. And still got 186 minutes of PP time last year.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Except he spent 2 years playing PP1. And you used all 3 years in your point totals.

It's a pretty major detail.

You tried to imply that seider was held back by a lack of PP opportunity compared to provorov. When the opposite was true.

Provorov had more EV points. Seider bridged the gap because he spent 2 years getting PP1 time when provorov didn't.

Seider got 2 years with PP1 time. He had 50 and 42 points with it. And still got 186 minutes of PP time last year.

I accepted my mistake. Why are you still going on about this?

Seider scored 42 points in his 3rd season compared to Provorov's 26. And this was without time on PP1. That's a big difference.

You also conveniently ignored that Provorov was 9th in Calder voting in his rookie season while Seider won his. These two players did not have similar starts to their careers. That's all I was saying.

 

[dgibb10]

I accepted my mistake. Why are you still going on about this?

Seider scored 42 points in his 3rd season compared to Provorov's 26. And this was without time on PP1. That's a big difference.

You also conveniently ignored that Provorov was 9th in Calder voting in his rookie season while Seider won his. These two players did not have similar starts to their careers. That's all I was saying.

Seider EV points year 3: 23
Provorov EV points year 3: 22

If you're gonna make points about PP opportunity, how about we take away the PPs alltogether?

I don't really care about calder voting, nor do I think provorov is better than seider.

I simply saw an absolutely ridiculous bullshit claim to pump seider's tires.

If you want to argue for Seider, there's plenty of better ways than these sad arguments.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Seider EV points year 3: 23
Provorov EV points year 3: 22

If you're gonna make points about PP opportunity, how about we take away the PPs alltogether?

Sure. Nice job ignoring the Calder point, once again. There's no purpose to this conversation any further.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Moritz Seider gets a lot of PP time. That's his favorite time.

 

[dgibb10]

Sure. Nice job ignoring the Calder point, once again. There's no purpose to this conversation any further.

Why would I care about the calder point?

You made a blatantly deceitful claim. I pointed it out.

The Calder point was true (although using Calder voting as an argument for anything long term is really pointless). It doesn't change the bullshit that was the rest of your post

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

He's been trending worse every year since his great rookie season. Hope he can turn it around or this will be a rough contract.

Glad you're jealous of the deal!

Honestly, however you slice it... this is a fair market value contract right now and it should age quite well because Seider will get more experience and continue to improve and the cap will go up.

This is precisely the type of deal that a guy with comparables like him (Faber, Sanderson, etc.) should get. Like, as contracts go, this is about as low risk as you get. He could always get hurt, he could always stop progressing, but there is nothing in his game that suggests he's going to go into the tank. His numbers are down because he was used in less optimal offensive situations than in prior years.

Ivan Provorov part 2, Electric Boogaloo

Seider needs to have five consecutive years all at 75% of his high water mark to be Ivan Provorov part 2. As it sits, his lowest point total is higher than Provorov's highest. And Provorov was on overall much stronger teams in Philly than what Detroit has had.

I know it's trendy to be the contrarian and act smart betting on a young player stalling... but my god, man. 7x8.55 is a fair value contract today for Seider, becomes a great value when the cap goes up even if he doesn't improve and becomes a massive steal if Seider hits another gear offensively. Because Seider has always been viewed as a defensive defenseman with surprising offensive talent and not an offensive dynamo.

 

[Tetsuo]

These charts have just reaffirmed my thought that Detroit needed to sign a RD this offseason instead of Kane/Tarasenko.

Mo needs help. Detroit probably has the worst 2nd and 3rd pair RD in the league.

It's the fact that we dealt Hronek really rearing it's ugly head. Let's hope ASP is worth it.....

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Because you made an incredibly disingenuous claim based on 3 years.

And Seider still was 28th in PP time last year (more than Morgan Reilly for example).

Well you’re using total minutes so we should circle back around to him averaging just under 23 minutes a game and not missing a single one since hitting the league. So yeah that helps, how many guys do that in the league?

I don’t really need to defend Seider to other fanbases, but realize some people clearly haven’t watched much of him. Usually something overused on a board where a lot of us follow hockey religiously. But, not sure how anyone could think he isn’t a very good player. Seider has broken a few of Lidstrom’s records in his early tenure. He is the best dman we have had since and I have seen every single game he has played for 3 years. If people want to believe he is bad because of some fancy stats or throw out bad comparisons like you did here go for it. More importantly Seider is better in his own end than he is in the offensive zone. So he does the first objective of his job exceptionally well.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

It's the fact that we dealt Hronek really rearing it's ugly head. Let's hope ASP is worth it.....

Preferred moving on from Hronek for somebody with better defense that didn’t wear down each year.

 

[FlyguyOX]

You can tell which people haven’t actually watched Seider, or provorov for that matter

 

[Ezekial]

This dgibb guy sure hates the Red Wings for some reason, in every thread that involves the Wings bashing them.

 

[dgibb10]

Well you’re using total minutes so we should circle back around to him averaging just under 23 minutes a game and not missing a single one since hitting the league. So yeah that helps, how many guys do that in the league?

I don’t really need to defend Seider to other fanbases, but realize some people clearly haven’t watched much of him. Usually something overused on a board where a lot of us follow hockey religiously. But, not sure how anyone could think he isn’t a very good player. Seider has broken a few of Lidstrom’s records in his early tenure. He is the best dman we have had since and I have seen every single game he has played for 3 years. If people want to believe he is bad because of some fancy stats or throw out bad comparisons like you did here go for it. More importantly Seider is better in his own end than he is in the offensive zone. So he does the first objective of his job exceptionally well.

Seider started his career as a rookie playing very tough minutes, but excelling in them.
The minutes became tougher, (among the hardest in the league), and his results declined in year two.
Now, he's playing the hardest minutes in hockey by far and honestly struggling with them.

My view is that, if you take some of the workload off of seider, his results will improve accross the board back to what he was in year 1 or even beyond that. Still give him hard minutes, but not to the extent he is playing now.

The problem is Yzerman has done a pretty atrocious job filling out the dcore around Seider. holl, petry, maataa, chiarot, ghost have been unable to take away the tough minutes from seider, and haven't exactly taken advantage of the easier minutes they play either.

 

[wmupreds]

A problem throughout this discussion is that "just watch the guy play" isn't that compelling of an argument coming from biased observers. I think most have been willing to admit that Seider's analytics don't tell the whole story. But Red Wings fans insisting on their eye test (that so happens to confirm their priors) isn't really that helpful.

Most here seem happy to say this is a fair deal, myself included. But there are legitimate concerns about the player too.

 

[deca guard]

A problem throughout this discussion is that "just watch the guy play" isn't that compelling of an argument coming from biased observers. I think most have been willing to admit that Seider's analytics don't tell the whole story. But Red Wings fans insisting on their eye test (that so happens to confirm their priors) isn't really that helpful.

Most here seem happy to say this is a fair deal, myself included. But there are legitimate concerns about the player too.

very high hockey iq / rugged / athletic / good skating / smart passer / legit size / hustling . all the while playing with iffy partners on a weak roster . hes so valuable at some many aspects of the game that ive never had fewer concerns about a player

 

[Bouboumaster]

Solid deal for Detroit

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

It's the fact that we dealt Hronek really rearing it's ugly head. Let's hope ASP is worth it.....

Hronek isn't what the team needed on 2nd pair long term. Sure, he's better than what we have now, but Seider is equally good at PP1 duties as Hronek while being better defensively. Where the team is really hurting is not having another defensive stopgap on RD behind Seider. Hronek isn't a shutdown guy.

 

[Tetsuo]

Hronek isn't what the team needed on 2nd pair long term. Sure, he's better than what we have now, but Seider is equally good at PP1 duties as Hronek while being better defensively. Where the team is really hurting is not having another defensive stopgap on RD behind Seider. Hronek isn't a shutdown guy.

Oh he's not a shutdown guy by any means, but he's better than whoever it is we're playing at 2RD now.

Preferred moving on from Hronek for somebody with better defense that didn’t wear down each year.

Well we got a promising young D player. It's a big case of kicking the can down the road but I can't blame Yzerman for the process.

 

[norrisnick]

Mo is a bottom 10% D in the league. All the charts say so. Should have just walked away from him.

 

[Czechboy]

Preferred moving on from Hronek for somebody with better defense that didn’t wear down each year.

So who was the replacement that did that last season?

 

[Three On Zero]

 

[TommyDangles]

Always gave me Risto vibes. Think this one won't age too well. Detroit will be looking to move on in a couple years.