CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

[TheLegend]

So much for that Nimby narrative . Courtesy of @sfalmy. Really impressive work from Tempe 1st.

View attachment 709961

Full tweet.

Agree with you that Tempe1st was very effective getting their message in.

 

[Shwan]

Agree with you that Tempe1st was very effective getting their message in.

 

[Lions67]

13,000 isn’t enough for an NHL team as a permanent home. It might be more than 5,000 but at least that’s a temporary situation.

That’s what I thought.
So it’s ok for the Yotes to play in a 5,000 seat rink for another 5 years ( that would make it 6 including last season) but moving into a 13,000 seat arena is not ok.
Got ya
It’s these type of responses why people get agitated.
And for the record, I wasn’t implying that 13,000 should be permanent, but it certainly is doable for at least 6 seasons.
Ps. I do feel for the fans ( the real ones ) losing the team. Yourself, @TheLegend and others have poured your heart and soul into this. I get it.

 

[Skidooboy]

It could have worked. It has worked for the Florida Panthers in Sunrise in a very similar situation. But Bettman was pissed that Glendale Council refused to spend $15m every year subsidizing the team. This team will leave Arizona because of Bettman's arrogance and the fans' naivety.

if there were enough fans the team would stay.
Phoenix has fans...just not enough to make it a real NHL market.

and I'm sorry. the Glendale was too far line sounds hollow to real fans in real hockey markets who drive as far or farther in places like Toronto In January during an ice storm...to get to a game.
let alone the many who can't get Leafs tickets and instead drive to Buffalo and Ottawa and Montreal to see the Leafs play.

 

[MeHateHe]

I'm trying to think of a good non-sports analogue to this situation. A major corporation, with billions of dollars in sales (the NHL) is considering whether to remove one of its brands and replace it with another. I thought the New Coke decision was a good analogue, given that it was removing one product and replacing it with another, but Coke tried to sell it as more or less the same thing, and also, this one is tied to a single geographic region.

This relates mostly to the idea that there isn't or should be a groundswell of public opinion that caused a large corporation (in this case, the NHL) to back away from a decision to eliminate or move their franchise, which caused the corporation to change its mind. I recognize, of course, that such a decision has not been made in this case. I wonder if, should the NHL go down that road, there is a blueprint for the public in Phoenix to rise up to change the NHL's mind. Is the flawed New Coke analogy the closest?

 

[Tawnos]

That’s what I thought.
So it’s ok for the Yotes to play in a 5,000 seat rink for another 5 years ( that would make it 6 including last season) but moving into a 13,000 seat arena is not ok.
Got ya
It’s these type of responses why people get agitated.
And for the record, I wasn’t implying that 13,000 should be permanent, but it certainly is doable for at least 6 seasons.
Ps. I do feel for the fans ( the real ones ) losing the team. Yourself, @TheLegend and others have poured your heart and soul into this. I get it.

I’m a Rangers fan. I don’t live in Phoenix and never have. I’m not losing anything here.

I don’t think there’s any distinct difference between a 5,000 seat temporary arena and a 13,000 seat temporary arena. There’s really no point in the Coyotes moving to a different temporary situation. As I understand it, there are no plans for a 16-18k arena in SD. If there were, absolutely that should be an option. So what, are they going to relocate again? If that’s the plan, I don’t think they’d even draw 5k in San Diego. They’d have a worthless local TV contract, if they could even get one.

The Coyotes will only be at Mullett for an extended period of time if things are progressing in Arizona. If they aren’t, they’ll be out of the market. That’s been the case since they signed onto the situation

 

[GKJ]

Why?
Is the arena outside?
Not trying to be an ass, I have no idea what the arena looks like. I just now that 13,000 is more than 5,000 loo

It’s still too small. Might be different if they already had a team in San Diego, but if that were the case they would be planning for another 5,000 seats.

But I do wonder if that could be negotiated.

 

[KevFu]

To be clear, I don't think any market can reasonably be available at this point, but if you think the Yotes are moving for next season, SD is probably the only realistic option, unless Tilman Fertitta changes his mind in Houston.

I'd love to see the return of the Nordiques, but I'd be shocked if it happened this year.

And yes, you can bet on this:



Toronto at +475 is a TERRIBLE bet, lol.

NHL is saving them for expansion for sure.

Oh man, if you're gambling person, bet Other because TWO THIRDS of the most likely places aren't even listed!

 

[oldunclehue]

So at best...if the Coyotes are able to find the right land and then get through another referendum....how many years are we away from seeing an arena built?

 

[KevFu]

What makes you think San Diego is a viable destination? Their arena is small for hockey (12,900 seats) and it's not a hockey market.

San Diego should be THE FAVORITE.

The issue with San Diego is still the new building. Why they're building it so small, I do not understand, because they're a market that should have one that's much larger, but 13,000 seats ain't gonna cut it.

Everything else I agree though, that's a place they should be trying to be in.

13,000 isn’t enough for an NHL team as a permanent home. It might be more than 5,000 but at least that’s a temporary situation.

@TheLegend mentioned it (and what a tremendous job he's done keeping people educated on what's really going on with the Coyotes, can't thank him enough, since every article on the topic is just blatantly ignorant)...

San Diego has an OLD arena, that the AHL Gulls play in and holds 13,000. The city took RFPs for redeveloping the site, all of which included a NEW ARENA.

That process is on-going. The plot of land currently has the Arena on the West end of it, parking around it, and the east end is an old, unoccupied strip mall, one thing that can/will stay, and like what looks like a lumber yard. It all looks sketchy and ripe for redevelopment.

The "Winning" RFP wants to build a new arena on the EAST end, in place of the strip mall/sketch lumber place; and then tear down the old arena and build housing on the West end, and the middle will be community space, "mixed use," aka HIGH TRAFFIC stuff that everyone wants: community park, with bars, restaurants, stores, etc (Similar to the Westgate concept).


So if the Coyotes joined this plan, you'd adjust the arena plan to be an NHL Arena instead of an AHL one (which there's still time for) and there's a place to play in the interim right there: the 13,000 seat AHL Arena. It's everything they were looking to do in Tempe, but with more seats in the interim.

And it's a market of 3.5 people with No NBA or NFL competition. Unlike Portland or Salt Lake.

 

[StreetHawk]

That’s what I thought.
So it’s ok for the Yotes to play in a 5,000 seat rink for another 5 years ( that would make it 6 including last season) but moving into a 13,000 seat arena is not ok.
Got ya
It’s these type of responses why people get agitated.
And for the record, I wasn’t implying that 13,000 should be permanent, but it certainly is doable for at least 6 seasons.
Ps. I do feel for the fans ( the real ones ) losing the team. Yourself, @TheLegend and others have poured your heart and soul into this. I get it.

No point in moving to a 13K arena unless there is a concrete commitment to get into a better arena. Understanding with SLC is that a new arena is part of their Olympics bid. But, I don't see the NHL agreeing to let the Coyotes go to SLC unless that is approved.

Like are they going to build that arena even if they don't get the Olympic bid?

 

[KevFu]

As I understand it, there are no plans for a 16-18k arena in SD. If there were, absolutely that should be an option.

This is the thing. There aren't plans for a 16-18k arena, simply because there's no tenant for that arena that would require 16-18k.

The arena that is being proposed for the site next to the old arena, is 16,000 for concerts and 12/13 for hockey because the only tenant the building would have would be an AHL team, who doesn't NEED more than 13,000 seats.

An NHL team talking to the developers can instantly change that.

 

[KevFu]

No point in moving to a 13K arena unless there is a concrete commitment to get into a better arena. Understanding with SLC is that a new arena is part of their Olympics bid. But, I don't see the NHL agreeing to let the Coyotes go to SLC unless that is approved.

Like are they going to build that arena even if they don't get the Olympic bid?

They're gonna build an arena in Salt Lake. It's a matter of when and the scope.

The city wants to build what they NEED, for the teams they have and the events they have. They want to have the Winter Olyypics in SLC and they want to have more teams.

This is all just a communication thing. The NHL learned its lesson with Houston, and that's why they met with the Jazz owner and Salt Lake officials.

 

[GKJ]

San Diego should be THE FAVORITE.





@TheLegend mentioned it (and what a tremendous job he's done keeping people educated on what's really going on with the Coyotes, can't thank him enough, since every article on the topic is just blatantly ignorant)...

San Diego has an OLD arena, that the AHL Gulls play in and holds 13,000. The city took RFPs for redeveloping the site, all of which included a NEW ARENA.

That process is on-going. The plot of land currently has the Arena on the West end of it, parking around it, and the east end is an old, unoccupied strip mall, one thing that can/will stay, and like what looks like a lumber yard. It all looks sketchy and ripe for redevelopment.

The "Winning" RFP wants to build a new arena on the EAST end, in place of the strip mall/sketch lumber place; and then tear down the old arena and build housing on the West end, and the middle will be community space, "mixed use," aka HIGH TRAFFIC stuff that everyone wants: community park, with bars, restaurants, stores, etc (Similar to the Westgate concept).


So if the Coyotes joined this plan, you'd adjust the arena plan to be an NHL Arena instead of an AHL one (which there's still time for) and there's a place to play in the interim right there: the 13,000 seat AHL Arena. It's everything they were looking to do in Tempe, but with more seats in the interim.

And it's a market of 3.5 people with No NBA or NFL competition. Unlike Portland or Salt Lake.

I think you’re underselling the market. Add in the 2.2 million or so in Tijuana metro.

 

[Tawnos]

This is the thing. There aren't plans for a 16-18k arena, simply because there's no tenant for that arena that would require 16-18k.

The arena that is being proposed for the site next to the old arena, is 16,000 for concerts and 12/13 for hockey because the only tenant the building would have would be an AHL team, who doesn't NEED more than 13,000 seats.

An NHL team talking to the developers can instantly change that.

That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. As I said I’d absolutely be for San Diego if there was an arena plan. Sounds like there would be.

 

[Stumbledore]

I'm with you on this one.

Generally, the fact that Meruelo/Gutierrez don't seem to have another site already chosen suggests to me that one of the following is true:

- All of this is a smokescreen for the behind-the-scenes dealings for a relocation, or
- The entire NHL leadership is so half-baked that they actually think Mullett for 6-7 years is an ok idea, or
- Bettman is the only one who is crazy, and the BOG and the PA are about to go bonkers and throw a huge fit into Bettman's lap

I'd like the last option, please.

 

[TheLegend]

I'm with you on this one.

Generally, the fact that Meruelo/Gutierrez don't seem to have another site already chosen suggests to me that one of the following is true:

- All of this is a smokescreen for the behind-the-scenes dealings for a relocation, or
- The entire NHL leadership is so half-baked that they actually think Mullett for 6-7 years is an ok idea, or
- Bettman is the only one who is crazy, and the BOG and the PA are about to go bonkers and throw a huge fit into Bettman's lap

I’m not going to get into the speculation of what’s going on “behind the scenes”. I’d like to keep my sanity.

But there is plenty of logic behind the pressure Bettman is likely to be facing from other owners and the PA to answer the question, “what is the plan?”. And it’s going to have to be in place soon…. As in before the start of next season IMO.

 

[TheLegend]

Fiesta Mall is actually further away from Downtown Phoenix than Gila River Arena is. If this site actually is an option, yet again, half the Valley will be bitching about the commute to games.

But it’s closer to where the money and big money portion of the fan base is.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

It's plainly obvious you've never been to Anaheim or So Cal for that matter.

I have been to Anaheim, three times to be exact.

 

[Boris Zubov]

I have been to Anaheim, three times to be exact.

Did you leave Disney? Anaheim & the OC might not have skyscrapers, but they do have have a population of about 4 million people...probably closer to 5 million if you consider the illegals. I'm unclear how you would consider that anything but a metropolis.

 

[TheLegend]

if there were enough fans the team would stay.
Phoenix has fans...just not enough to make it a real NHL market.

and I'm sorry. the Glendale was too far line sounds hollow to real fans in real hockey markets who drive as far or farther in places like Toronto In January during an ice storm...to get to a game.
let alone the many who can't get Leafs tickets and instead drive to Buffalo and Ottawa and Montreal to see the Leafs play.

Funny, because I’ve heard the same thing about Ottawa. “It’s too far”. “Out in the boonies!!” Etc…. etc….

You’re mixing apples and oranges and making a fruit salad.

It’s been explained here so many times that no two markets can be equally compared.

 

[berklon]

So at best...if the Coyotes are able to find the right land and then get through another referendum....how many years are we away from seeing an arena built?

At this point, I think they're at least 5 years away from a new arena (if it ever comes).

 

[Headshot77]

Maybe they are seeing the issues in Winnipeg (supposedly) and want to avoid a quick sale/relocation? Parties might be in agreement that the team needs to move, but wants to take a little more time to figure out the best option? Maybe KC can done quickly, but they do not want to rush into a deal that could also wind up as a disaster?

The issues in Winnipeg have nothing to do with how fast they relocated. Their issue is a lack of corporate season ticket sales post-pandemic.

 

[sh724]

There has been like 600 posts on this since i have last been on which appears to be mostly be baseless speculation so sorry if this was already discussed but...

Is it possible for them to tweak the original proposal and have it revoted on later in the year? Yes it would push back construction but that is a minimal concern at this point

 

[Headshot77]

To be clear, I don't think any market can reasonably be available at this point, but if you think the Yotes are moving for next season, SD is probably the only realistic option, unless Tilman Fertitta changes his mind in Houston.

I'd love to see the return of the Nordiques, but I'd be shocked if it happened this year.

And yes, you can bet on this:



Toronto at +475 is a TERRIBLE bet, lol.

NHL is saving them for expansion for sure.

Bet the field because SLC isn't even on that list